For 25H... wanted to keep class issues seperate

[Haüenstein]

Ryan totally hates 25 (just kidding)

This restrictor issue is just a totally ridiculous proposition.

Hi Ryan,

I can't believe in all your years running 25SSH that you would hold this position. If there was a rule that you had to have a 30-foot mast sticking out of your CSR, and then every CSR racer took off the mast in testing and found it to be a much better ride, would it be a "ridiculous proposition" for those drivers to want to remove the mast? I'm not saying you're wrong, though. I'm just saying.

You're usually for having single-engine model classes, so why not remove the restrictor from the 25, set the minimum class requirement, and see what happens (this could be interesting with a West coast Winter Nationals and Nationals coming up in 2007...)? Then when the HR20 is under full production we could reinstitute 15SSH, make 20 c.i. BSH a "new" class and start fresh.

Maybe the restrictor should have been removed in 1992.

How does the 20 c.i. Hot Rod, stock, compare to a Yamato 80? I feel like these questions have been asked before... but I can't remember the answer to this one.

Mike H.

[ricochet112]

Hot Rod vs Mecrury

How many 20ci HR's ran in 25SSH at the Nationals since the HR became a legal engine for the class?

Why are we assuming the NEW 20ci HR will still be in the 25SSH class? (is that the way APBA has set it up?)
If the HR is slower than a 25XS then no one will buy one, hurting both classes.

Wouldn't it make more sense to make a new BSH class for the 20ci HR, then move the 15ci HR to a 15ss class and leave 25SSH alone? If 25SSH dies it dies, and if it lives it lives.

What is the future class structure for the new 20ci HR?

It's still a mystery to me why the 25SSH class is declining, it is a good engine and it drove like an "old school" 30H, needing to fly it through the corners.
Going from a Merc to a Yamato it feels like your pulling an anchor when your turn the wheel on a Yamato powered boat, it slows down fast with even a slight turn of the wheel. I always thought that having an engine with no punch just made it more challenging/rewarding to drive.

my 1 and 2/3 cents Mike

[ryan_4z]

Mike,

You are right, I know nothing about the ride, other than what I have heard. My only reason for wanting to leave the restrictor is to ensure that the Hot Rod has a place to compete. Like Daren said, dozens of people are not going to rush out and buy these things, this isn't the 70's anymore. When the 15 came out, my grandfather went and picked up a 1/2 dozen or so to bring back to region 3. This isn't going to happen this time around, although I certainly hope it does.

You are also right that I strongly support single engine class structures. And I would be more than willing to compromise on the restrictor issue, if it meant getting class standards re-instituted. I also like the idea of having 15ssH and a 20 c.i. BSH classes. I would like to see this be the class structure of the future.

I don't want to seem like I am unreasonable(or that I hate 25 ), I just like to argue, especially when I believe strongly in somthing. I believe that these discussions are the best way to reach the best solution. And I also believe that Hot Rod is the future of the only thing that matters in life, Boat Racing.

From what I hear about the speeds Dean is seeing with his Hot Rod, a 20ssH won't keep up.

Now I'm going to work dad.

[ryan_4z]

Compromise

I think someone has already suggested this, but the thought just hit me. What if we pull the restrictor, and lower the motor. Then the 25ssH drivers get the safer ride, and easier transition from the runabout, and it is still competitive with the 20 Hot Rod. Maybe Dean and Mark can do some testing to find out where to put the motor, 1/2 or 3/4 would probably do it. This seems to me like it would please all sides, and be the best in the long run for the sport.

[Big Don]

Here is some real data.

Pulling the restrictor will give the engine an increase of about 2.0 - 2.5 HP. What that equates to in speed would be a guess on my part but I would think you are talking about a good 25 Hydro going 73/74 MPH, 2-3 MPH faster than the current 25 speeds.

A lighter flywheel was tried it weighed 6 ¼ lbs, the results were… broken cranks.

The big question as I see it…Wait I’ll start a different thread for this comment… Dana did, good job.

[csh2z]

I don't think the restrictor issue was generated by the drivers of 25 was it? I thought pulling the restrictor was only as a potential cure for the acceleration & deceleration which is the inherent problem. This whole thing came up after Del's accident. We decided that some testing should be done to give us some data on which to base a solution. To my knowledge, no testing has been done, therefore we don't have a solution. What should the commission do if the people that were to do the testing don't follow through? Last year Mike Ross came to the national meeting with test results with a Yamato, for the 25 Runabout. The Mercury teams were challenged to bring their test data, or at least send it to a commissioner so that we could make some intelligent decisions about that class. All we got was opinions & complaints. I'm not surprised.
It gets a little frustrating after a while. If we are going to save this sport for future generations, it's going to take some effort from all of us. I'm pretty sure my wife would prefer me not to spend another anniversary at the national meeting without her. Alot of people make great sacrifices of their time & money to try to keep this thing going. Let's all get a little more involved. Everybody is welcome. John

[14-H]

25SSH testing

John: This testing was actually done after Del's accident. The problem is that the guy who was doing it at the time (who I thought was unbiased) got sucked in by the hard-core 25 hydro drivers and that was the end of it. As I said before, if you want to make changes like this, you've got to have at least a few people who race the class support it or it'll never fly. That's why there still aren't capsules in flat-bottom inboards. In that situation, however, the drivers don't quit, they just get killed.

[raceboat61-S]

Ryan's 25H compromise

Well, I wouldn't call myself "hardcore" anything, but I am enthusiastic. Our team runs our 2 Mercury 25XS's almost as much as anybody here in Region 6. We run em' in Mod some ,too. We will publically support Ryan's Mercury compromise (pull restrictor AND lower shaft height) especially if it is married to a weight compromise for Yamato in 25SSR. I am rebuilding one 25runabout this Winter and just bought a new Sorensen kit for a second one so we can run 2 Merc powered 25SSR's in 2006. This should help the class around this region.
I raised this issue here on Hydroracer.net a few days ago for somewhat selfish reasons....we purchased 2 25XS engines in the past season for our hydro's and now we want to also run them on runabouts. I might add that my partner races his in 25Mod hydro, too. This engine is very versatile in that currently we can run it in 25SSH, 25ModH, BModH and 25SSR or BMR (all in its Stock form). My motive for restrictor removal is to be more competitive in 25SSR AND to make it easier to change between classes. I think I'll like the restrictor removal for the runabout but actually haven't tried it yet. I ran second to Pater at Constantine with the restrictor still in 'cause it was too much trouble to fiddle with it that day. But even with the restrictor removed, I know that Mercury can't come close to the speed or acceleration of Pater's Yamato unless my motor gets a little more poop and Pater puts on some weight. Somebody, please, feed him ! I watched J Michael Kelly try to keep up at Dayton.
As to the 20ci Hot Rod's.......I hope they get em' on the lake soon. I hope there are lots of them. We have 2 15ci Hot rods ourselves and run 'em in BSH/BSR and in AMR/AMH. But, in my mind for the next 3 years there will NOT be enough of them running in the 25 class that we should disallow this proposed change. Restrictors, height changes and weight adjustments may be just short term solutions so that current racers can keep interest in the class. It'll still be here when Hot Rods are coming off the assembly line and we'll make adjustments for them, too !
By the way, we are a stronger class than some on this thread have suggested. The APBA website says that 68 different racers got points in 25SSR in 2005.......true there were not as many pure Mercury guys in 25SSH, but we still want to race! I'll be at the Region 6 meeting for the Stock and Mod breakout sessions tomorrow. I hope others who care will be there, too. Mike Marshall, Raceboat61-S

[mercguy]

so..............

as I read it here, these are the reasons the 25XS drivers want the restrictors removed:

1- to help improve acceleration out of the turns
2- makes it easier when swapping the motor to another class, that does not require the restrictor.

my conclusions:

1- due to the weight of the flywheel, the accel/decel issue will still be sort of a problem, even with the restrictor removed. Best solution that was put forth: remove restrictor and lower engine height to 1/2" or 3/4"

2- making it easier to swap the motor is not a viable reason, as several other classes have to do this also (J, AX, 20SSH, 25SSR, etc, etc)

as I understand now that the 25SSH rig is a "hairy ride", due to mainly the engine height and size of boat, the best solution put forth, is to lower the engine and pull the restrictor. A bigger boat requirement would be nice, but it is too late in the game now to make the change.....

has anyone tried the 25XS on a C sized hydro with the motor at the 1/2" height restriction?

[ryan_4z]

I am pretty sure that a lot of the good 25ssH's out there are running boats bigger than C's right now. That's what I have heard anyway.

[ricochet112]

Both of my records were set in a Blackwell hydro that was 10'4" OA, 74" afterplane and a 35" bottom. I was running 3/8 to 1/2" deep. Almost exactly "C" dimensions.

Removing the restrictor will not improve handling. Are peolple going to back off going into the corner because they have a LITTLE bit of punch..yeah right.

The restrictor issue, as I see it, is a 25SSR issue not 25SSH.

Mike Bartlett

[mercguy]

so, as I read it...........

the case is closed for removing the restrictor for 25SSH........but, implementing a engine height of 1/2" or so, should be set forth to the BOD........

[raceboat61-S]

Dan, NO !!
The case is NOT closed on pulling the restrictor in 25SSH. And PLEASE don't stick us with a 1/2" height restriction that isn't accompanied with an off-setting compromise on the restrictor. The original SORC rationale for leaving restrictor installed (which made it un-necessarily different from 25SSR) was a flawed decision. A few of the drivers like me and my racing partner want to race in BOTH 25SSR and 25SSH with the Merc. Some who have rationalized that making another class of racers have to change restrictor in/out between classes just because some of the others (J, AXS, A) already do so is shortsighted. A;so,several (not all) of you guys are making assumptions about controllability with the 25SSH without significant firsthand knowledge. You say there are only 10-20 of us 25 Merc hydro drivers ? Well, poll us about "hairy rides", controllability, and top-end speeds. We will all likely tell you we are pleased with our rigs and don't mind changing to an UN-restricted carburetor since we are essentially a single engine class at this time and as long as we are the same we don't care. Besides, if you look back through this and other previous threads it wasn't me or any other current Mercury 25SSH drivers that questioned controllability or used it as rationale for making common carb restrictions in 25SSR and 25SSH. Too bad a couple of other racers who are not in our class raised the issue. While I cannot speak directly for other 25SSH drivers, I think what I have voiced here will echo their sentiments. Mike Marshall, Raceboat61-S

[Big Don]

in my opinion… pulling the restrictor without a height restriction is not going to happen. A 2/3 MPH increase in that class is insane. As for the comment…”Well, poll us about "hairy rides", controllability, and top-end speeds. We will all likely tell you we are pleased with our rigs...” … some of the best hydro driver in the country on here saying they quit racing the class because of the ride.

Not disagreeing with your post, just stating my vote is to pull the restrictor and have a lower height.

Anyone know how much slower the 25H will go by dropping it ½, does anyone have test data?

[mercguy]

in my opinion… pulling the restrictor without a height restriction is not going to happen. A 2/3 MPH increase in that class is insane. As for the comment…”Well, poll us about "hairy rides", controllability, and top-end speeds. We will all likely tell you we are pleased with our rigs...” … some of the best hydro driver in the country on here saying they quit racing the class because of the ride.

Not disagreeing with your post, just stating my vote is to pull the restrictor and have a lower height.

Anyone know how much slower the 25H will go by dropping it ½, does anyone have test data?

these are my "thoughts" also about the subject. Mike, you have heard from several veteran drivers (10+ yrs), of which are or have been National Champions, record setters, etc, so are VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE in what they are saying.

now, what is the speed difference in 1/2", 3/4", etc in a percentage?????