For 25H... wanted to keep class issues seperate

[ryan_4z]

I really do not want to offend any of the current 25ssH drivers, but it would be assinine to make a decision to benefit such a small group of drivers, when the future of the sport, and this class, is so clearly dependent on the production of a new motor. This class has been raced for years "as is," and the only reason this issue has come up is because of the situation in the runabout class. Now, all of a sudden, the hydro drivers put up this attitude of being held back, when that is clearly not the case. I know a lot of you hate to admit it but, the 25xs motor is not going to come back in strong numbers. It is time for a change. Ron Selewach has provided us with an opportunity to better our sport for the long term, and it would be irresposible, and totally reprehensible to not take advantage of it. It seems to me that the 25ssH drivers are being more than selfish in asking for this. Especially considering that this class will hopefully be predominantly(if not entirely) a 20 c.i. Hot Rod class within 5-6 years. We have to stop thinking about today, and the boats that are on the water, and start thinking about tommorow, and the boats that will be on the water.

[mercguy]

agree and disagree.......

I really do not want to offend any of the current 25ssH drivers, but it would be assinine to make a decision to benefit such a small group of drivers, when the future of the sport, and this class, is so clearly dependent on the production of a new motor. This class has been raced for years "as is," and the only reason this issue has come up is because of the situation in the runabout class. Now, all of a sudden, the hydro drivers put up this attitude of being held back, when that is clearly not the case. I know a lot of you hate to admit it but, the 25xs motor is not going to come back in strong numbers. It is time for a change. Ron Selewach has provided us with an opportunity to better our sport for the long term, and it would be irresposible, and totally reprehensible to not take advantage of it. It seems to me that the 25ssH drivers are being more than selfish in asking for this. Especially considering that this class will hopefully be predominantly(if not entirely) a 20 c.i. Hot Rod class within 5-6 years. We have to stop thinking about today, and the boats that are on the water, and start thinking about tommorow, and the boats that will be on the water.

while it does seem that a new motor will be available in the near future, we still need to let these 25XS guys run what they have and do the best ability they are given. These people has spent lots of money on their motors, props, boats, etc. So, we cannot just say "screw you", your motor is obsolete, so put it away. Doing that will guarantee some members will walk away from racing and that is NOT what we want to happen. What is so wrong with allowing some "freedom" for these motors. I keep hearing that the Hot Rod 20 motor will be available in the next few years, but, do you thing EVERYONE is going to run out and buy one immediately? Not alot of racers have the financial capability to be able to do that. You CANNOT take away the individual's right to make a choice on their own and force them to choose! Even when this new Hot Rod comes out, it is still going to take several years it catches on. Yes, the 25XS motor has been out of production and parts not available for quite along time, but so have several other motors, that are being raced in other classes. I say just leave the 25XS motors and owners alone and let time make the decision for them. They will either find that their motors are no longer able to compete or just too expensive to maintain......

[KellyLadd]

My 25SSH ride...

... was one of the scariest moments in my life. I ran a very competivie Tommy Smith 2nd rig and won my elimination the first time in it at Grass Lake (yes, ELIM - back in '95). I was too scared to let off and be next to the other out of control boats at the front of the pack. He won the Nationals by a 1/2 lap that year. I never wanted to drive it again...

The comments I see here aren't being realistic. To beat Zolkars or a Del rig at the Nationals, you need to run up even with the bottom. And I've seen the Zolkar's, Del, Tommy Smith all crash [for no particular reason] out in front! That's just not safe... in my opinion. I have access to a very competitive 25 motor (just like the 20 and C), but it sits in Joe's basement because it's too dangerous for me.

Granted, those of you that are 3/8" or 1/2" below the bottom may think it's a good ride, but I haven't seen you compete with the top dogs.

I don't think the restrictor matters for class participation. Put in a reasonable height limit so competing at the highest level is safe - and you just might get more drivers. But it's not my class... let them fly high if they like.

My 2 cents for you, Don Allen.
KLadd-

[KellyLadd]

oops...

Obviously Kevin, not Kelly...

[mercguy]

while it does seem that a new motor will be available in the near future, we still need to let these 25XS guys run what they have and do the best ability they are given. These people has spent lots of money on their motors, props, boats, etc. So, we cannot just say "screw you", your motor is obsolete, so put it away. Doing that will guarantee some members will walk away from racing and that is NOT what we want to happen. What is so wrong with allowing some "freedom" for these motors. I keep hearing that the Hot Rod 20 motor will be available in the next few years, but, do you thing EVERYONE is going to run out and buy one immediately? Not alot of racers have the financial capability to be able to do that. You CANNOT take away the individual's right to make a choice on their own and force them to choose! Even when this new Hot Rod comes out, it is still going to take several years it catches on. Yes, the 25XS motor has been out of production and parts not available for quite along time, but so have several other motors, that are being raced in other classes. I say just leave the 25XS motors and owners alone and let time make the decision for them. They will either find that their motors are no longer able to compete or just too expensive to maintain......

I am making the point of allowing the engine to stay in the current class and pull the restrictors, NOT about the "uncontrollable" issues related to the engine height. That SHOULD be changed......FOR SAFETY SAKE, along with raising the age one can start racing OSY400! That is a whole nother topic!

[hydroracer25]

Stock Outboard's version of the 'silly season'

All right, I guess it's time for me to chime in and jump into the fray.

I agree with a lot of the posts and disagree with many as well, but I guess that's what normally happens. Based on my years racing 25SSH it was the worst ride of any class I've been in and I've raced or been in just about every 2 cylinder Stock and Mod outboard hydroplane. Our rig was not 'out of control' because it was too high as we race it between 3/8-5/8" and were competitive winning 3 Nationals in a row ('95-97, sorry KLadd, Tommy won in '94) and was as competive as anything in '98, '01 and '02 before 'retiring' due to an accident (that's another story).

It was a bad ride due to (in my opinion):
1) the back end felt like it always lifted and subsequently made the boat feel like it was 'hopping' down the straights
2) it didn't want to slow down when you backed off
3) as KLadd said in other words, you were always worrying about the nut who was truly 'out of control' that would crash into or in front of you

With that said... I agree that:
1) most 25SSH boats are/were too small. Most boats were approx. 70-74" afterplanes with 35" bottoms at the time. Too small for a 71mph rig.
2) putting a height restriction at 1/2-3/4" would help, but not solve things
3) we do care about these members (very well said Darren), even though not big in numbers, they represent a large number of members who volunteer to run/work at our races AND represent potential future members through their children (let's face it, we do not attract AND RETAIN a lot of new members). The majority are 2nd, 3rd and even 4th generation racers. Seldomly do you see new blood with the passion of Mr. Gohring.

I'm not sure about:
1) pulling the restrictor, as I have no experience. What I do believe is that on many of the already 'small' boats this would be more of an issue if the speeds went up 2-3 mph (if even that much)
2) Would a lighter/smaller flywheel (which I believe are out there) help the deceleration?
3) we run at 25MH on the same boat with an 'old stlye' Quicksilver gearcase with identicle skeg as the 25XS and it is a ton better. Why? Mod throttle response? Different gearcase shape/design? maybe don't know the answer, just the ride is A LOT better.

I disagree with:
1) it being "asinine" to make a decision on 'such a small group of drivers'. Read #3 above, as well as the fact that I believe there are many that have just started in the last year or two in 25SSH.
2) until we see 20ci Hot Rods populating the water, it isn't fair to the current "25" drivers. Don't get me wrong I am a Hot Rod supporter (racing 15/B for over 17 years now) and agree that it is one bright spot in the SO future, but until we have parts and engines flowing it is hard to believe. Look at how much BSH has dropped off in the last few years, we're losing many of those 'long time' supporters.
3) that statement that it gives a 'smooth, safe and enjoyable ride'. when I raced there were 8-16 boats (yes 16 at Grass Lake in about '96 or '97). see #3 in first part (enough said).
4) record must be frozen, I know you have a few Mike, but they didn't freeze records when they dropped 15ci Hot Rods from 12cc to 13cc's (impossible to break the old records now). at least if they pull the restrictor, you have a chance to up it.

So as it remains we still have a top notch 25XS and spares in the basement waiting to appreciate for the collectors (j/k).

By the way Dean, since the Miskerik's lent you a 25XS rig you may work on the spelling of our name

Mark

[ryan_4z]

while it does seem that a new motor will be available in the near future, we still need to let these 25XS guys run what they have and do the best ability they are given. These people has spent lots of money on their motors, props, boats, etc. So, we cannot just say "screw you", your motor is obsolete, so put it away. Doing that will guarantee some members will walk away from racing and that is NOT what we want to happen. What is so wrong with allowing some "freedom" for these motors. I keep hearing that the Hot Rod 20 motor will be available in the next few years, but, do you thing EVERYONE is going to run out and buy one immediately? Not alot of racers have the financial capability to be able to do that. You CANNOT take away the individual's right to make a choice on their own and force them to choose! Even when this new Hot Rod comes out, it is still going to take several years it catches on. Yes, the 25XS motor has been out of production and parts not available for quite along time, but so have several other motors, that are being raced in other classes. I say just leave the 25XS motors and owners alone and let time make the decision for them. They will either find that their motors are no longer able to compete or just too expensive to maintain......

No one, including myself has said "screw you, put your motor away." I certainly do not want to see anyone quit this sport. But the fact of the matter is that someone is gonna be pissed no matter what decision is made. You cannot make a decision, at the request of a small group of people, when it could end up being a detrement to a possibly much larger group of future racers. Especially since no one in the 25ssH class is being held back, or having their "freedom" restricted in any way. No, I do not think everyone will run out and buy a Hot Rod immediately. And as much as I would like to do so, I probably will not either. But if they can't compete, then NO ONE will go buy them, and the class will never grow. As far as other motors being out of production, no other classes seem to have a problem getting a full field at the nationals, except for DSH and 25ssH. When they do, I will be the first to say it is time for a change, I promise you that. Even if it's my own beloved OMC A or my 302. But if we let the 25ssH drivers pull their restrictors we are saying, screw you to Ron Selewach, and Dean, and Sled. After all the work and money they have put in, and after the commission has agreed to work with them in finding a place for their motors to race. That would be a disgraceful thing to do.

The only question that must be answered is this: How will this change benefit the sport? And when you realize that the answer is that it won't, the decision to leave the class alone becomes very easy.

[crankbearing]

glad I'm not a new racer

I realize that hydroracer is a place that we can openly discuss these issues but I have to say if I was a new racer wanting to get into our sport, seeing all this stuff and the attitudes of different people, I would look at another sport - just my opinion.

I have Del's 2000 Nationals winning outfit 25ssh although I do not run it much anymore as they do not need me to make the boat count in Canada at our races. we have 7-10 all the time. I was given one shim when I bought the boat and I was told that this is the only difference in setup that was made without the shim the shaft is 1/2" below and with the shim a 1/4" below and del won with this setup I am told. The restrictor may or may not help in my opinion I have tried without and ya a little more top end but still hard to get around a corner.

As far as parts and new motors. - parts are available you can buy fishing motors anywhere and mids and tuners are instock at IAI - whats the beef. Gas at 4.00 a gallon etc....

With no offence to Ron or Dean at this point the 20 is on a piece of paper If I am not mistaken, so I would think that from paper to prototype to production not including costing of raw parts/ sales forcasts and etc.. this motor is 5 years away. So would you have the 25 class die until the new motor is proven.

You want to fix the 25SSH problem, allow Steve Roskowski's igntion system and change the flywheel. This will fix the out of control not slowing down problem. Or at least take a 25 fishing flywheel and allow the sorc to get one turned down to say 5lbs and have it tested to 8500 or so to make sure it stays together. You do them math 8lbs or more cast flywheel at 8000RPM that is a whol bunch of inertia to slow down.

The lower units in this case it was always said that the merc lower unit would pop at a certain speed test this theary is it the 16:21 gears or the gearcase. Ron has new 1:1 gears try and allow those to see if it fixes the problem. I know that I have seen many 25's on the course with the fishing flywheel being used and this must have a weight of 10-12lbs You wonder why they do not slow down in the corners or break cranks that's be the answer.

let;s look at this from a technical point of view as there are fixes which will allow this motor a viable option and longevity. I think you need to recount the dsh numbers Ryan as I have delivered 5 motors and 3 more this winter and I know 4 new guys hitting the water next year around canada so the "d" numbers will be up. You may or may not have 16 boats at the nationals with the amount of $$$ involved espescially when you split up the national events and have to take 3 weeks off to do both. Our DMH numbers are on the rise up here as well with 4 new boats next year and maybe 3-4 from region 2.

In another perspective and lets reverse the roles the 402 is now out and that has to replace the 302 or 102 as no more parts are avaiable and a 402 is going to come in at 4000-6000 ??? Just a number what are you going to do. Do we just say bye-bye ifyou do not have a 402 you are done running. Well if you were to do that it would be so long Stock Outboard.

Regards,

[csh12M]

20CI clarification

Quick Clarification,

Hey Dave, we are not in prototype with the 20c.i. you saw me race it at Crystal Lake. Hot Rod has reproduced all the parts needed to build the motor except for the crank and we are working on that now and will have it done before next season. We are less that a year away from having 20 new 20c.i. motors. Not to mention their are a lot of them in basements out their...... you guys saw how mine ran. Pull them out and start running them.

Later,
12M

[crankbearing]

I stand corrected

Hey Dean,

THX, for that I thought that was a 15 you had with you at C.L. Thanks for the update. I agree then get them out of the basment and start running them. from that point of view there are probably 50 25SSH outfits lying around in basements with the same scenario, if the HR guys will not come out and play with there stuff is it any different for those 25 guys. So is it that they do not know there motors are legal and/or are we just not getting the word out to enough people that their HR's are legal for the class. or is it just plain and simple economics.

Regards,

[champhotrod]

Hot Rod Pistons

Racing Outboards just had a run of 20 cubic inch pstons done in 5 sizes.
We also have 3 new 20 cu. in. cylinder blocks on the shelf along with a whole bunch of piston rings.

Cooper Jess
920-748-7661

[G Stillwill]

I dont run this class so dont have any axe to grind either way, but to me whats the differance if you run with the restrictor or not your all competting with the same 25 motor. I can see it in the runabout class as your running against the rice burners and need the extra. If its a case of having to change the plate to run the same motor in hydro and runabout then just get another motor and save time and trouble of switching. To me its just a lame excuse for not racing the 25Hydro because it has a restrictor plate. As far as the hotrod you can look at it this way if you can only get a couple real 25's to show up and not race and get a couple 20 hotrods to show up with them you at least can have enough to race so dont run the Hotrods out of town. I dont think pulling the restrictors out will bring anymore racers out of the wood work then already run them in 25Hydro. Just my 2 cents

[14-H]

***Eddie if ***, at your racing weight (140 ??)

I wish....

[ryan_4z]

With no offence to Ron or Dean at this point the 20 is on a piece of paper If I am not mistaken, so I would think that from paper to prototype to production not including costing of raw parts/ sales forcasts and etc.. this motor is 5 years away. So would you have the 25 class die until the new motor is proven.




I think you need to recount the dsh numbers Ryan


In another perspective and lets reverse the roles the 402 is now out and that has to replace the 302 or 102 as no more parts are avaiable and a 402 is going to come in at 4000-6000 ??? Just a number what are you going to do. Do we just say bye-bye ifyou do not have a 402 you are done running. Well if you were to do that it would be so long Stock Outboard.

Regards,

Dave,

Are you saying that if we don't pull the restrictor the 25 class will die. That will not happen. This restrictor issue is just a totally ridiculous proposition. As far as my DSH numbers, I need not recount anything, there was not a full field at the nationals, that is all I said, and it is true.

As far as replacing the 102 and 302, maybe Hot Rod will have a C motor by then. That we will deal with when the time comes. But no one will say then, nor is anyone saying now, "bye-bye...you are done running." And I am really kind of tired of people twisting my words. I have never said that we should just can the 25. As it stands, I think it should be considered a local class, and not run at the nationals, but that is a class standards issue, not a 25 issue. I have even said that this motor served a purpose in our sport for the next 5-6 years. So how the h*ll is that saying put your motor away, bye-bye, we don't want you here.

[csh2z]

The main reason the restrictor should not be taken out of the 25 is because the SORC has made a commitment to Hot Rod that their motor will be at least competitive with the current 25XS. And it is. I don't think it would be in the best interest of the class to allow any mechanical changes to the motor. We are trying to keep our motors as stock as possible. That's how we got the name Stock Outboard. The motor of the future must be competitive or nobody will buy one! John 2-Z Ryan get to work!