Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[reed28n]

Cost and one race time

Tommy
The petition will be available for you to review as a eligible driver at Tabor City. The petition has a 'explanation/summary' for your review and consideration.

One of the MAIN issues in this controversy is/was the SORC's willingness to allow two currently produced engines (Yamato 302 vs. Sidewinder) to compete in the same class. The arguments are spelled out in the petition for your review and every other 20ssh driver that competed in 2013.

The petition calls out the cost of a currently manufactured American made motor and heat times from one race. No hard data just feelings. No attempt to parity no desire to compete, these people feel that they have done too much work on their own rigs with their current motors and they are threatened by the opportunity for a new driver to purchase a new motor and compete with them after all they have worked s hard to obtain.

This is not about equal opportunity for all to compete, it is about a few who have bought sold and own multiple motors to procure what they have now, not wanting new drivers in the class to compete.

Look at our retention of new drivers why do they leave? They can't procure a competitive motor. The y 80 is 40 years old buy a good motor from Mike or Don, they have several..... But you will never beat them because it will not be equal to the motor they keep. By a new sidewinder and you are a threat.

[reed28n]

Don and Mike

This petition is not for the good of the whole of our sport. This is about a couple guys and a sense of entitlement. Don't through the following rules statement around so lightly. The SORC is what you both supported until they didn't vote your will. Now you won't allow them to manage the class.

That is what I meant by protectionist

You guys can go ahead a circle up and decide who you want to win in what class out of your team, but let the rest of the class race on the course for the opportunity to win.

You can pick who out of your camp get all the good stuff for the records, but let the rest of take our one rig with one motor have a chance on our own

[pav225]

The decision to launch the petition wasn't taken lightly and only came after much discussion. We knew that there would be plenty of folks slinging mud at us instead of discussing the merits of the motor being in or out of the class. Based on what has happened in other classes in our area, and comments from lots of folks throughout the country, we do feel strongly that this is in the best interest of 200ssH and Stock.

Mike

[Racerkyle20]

The decision to launch the petition wasn't taken lightly and only came after much discussion. We knew that there would be plenty of folks slinging mud at us instead of discussing the merits of the motor being in or out of the class. Based on what has happened in other classes in our area, and comments from lots of folks throughout the country, we do feel strongly that this is in the best interest of 200ssH and Stock.

Mike

So based on motor information from OTHER classes in your area was your guys' process? Do you guys have any 20SW in region 7? How have they done? What other kind of data (not Dylan's BSH times from NY) do you have to support that the 20SW is considerably faster/will be faster? Have you been beat by a 20SW ever?

These are questions that should be asked and are neglected in your proposal to get rid of the motor.

To be honest I'm surprised something like this didn't happen when the 302 became the motor of choice in 20. All the 80 drivers that wanted to compete just bought 302's....

At this point all I see in the proposal is fear that it will take over the class and other's (yamato owners) won't be able to compete. This is all speculation. What can you offer in regards to data? That's what everyone wants when a motor is put into a class, that should also be asked/demanded when a motor is taken out of class.

[Big Don]

Look at our retention of new drivers why do they leave? They can't procure a competitive motor. The y 80 is 40 years old buy a good motor from Mike or Don, they have several..... But you will never beat them because it will not be equal to the motor they keep. By a new sidewinder and you are a threat.

Scott thanks for pointing this out, Donny does still run an 80 engine, and would have at this years Nationals. But, we are going 302 direction. Why because they are inexpensive & reliable. This was the engine that should and will be the engine of choice for our family. SO this is not about protecting our trailer box like you think. We are buying 2 302 engines for under the price of 1 Sidewinder.

[Big Don]

To be honest I'm surprised something like this didn't happen when the 302 became the motor of choice in 20. All the 80 drivers that wanted to compete just bought 302's....

At this point all I see in the proposal is fear that it will take over the class and other's (yamato owners) won't be able to compete. This is all speculation. What can you offer in regards to data? That's what everyone wants when a motor is put into a class, that should also be asked/demanded when a motor is taken out of class.

Kyle, thanks for pointing this out, so what the SORC said to those 80 drivers that purchased 302's was go take a flying leap. We are going to possibly obsolete your purchase and force you to go spend more money if you want to compete.

All we are trying to do is stop this before it destroys a class.

Sidewinder has other classes and I agree we do need them. But all their engine do not have to be in all our classes. Keep 20 & C Yamato classes.

[reed28n]

Trying to take the high road now?

The decision to launch the petition wasn't taken lightly and only came after much discussion. We knew that there would be plenty of folks slinging mud at us instead of discussing the merits of the motor being in or out of the class. Based on what has happened in other classes in our area, and comments from lots of folks throughout the country, we do feel strongly that this is in the best interest of 200ssH and Stock.

Mike

The petition started in the mud, the slinging is of your doing. By the logic in your cover letter a motor that removes the restrictor and adds 35 lbs should easily increase the speed on that rig by 5 miles per hour. That is not a factual statement. You have an agenda and you are choosing data and creating projections to support your desire.

If your assumption is true, the 302 in the C class should sun 5 miles per hour faster that the 20SSH platform.

The 302 should also pick up 5 miles per hour going from the 25SSR platform to the CSR platform. When in fact some 25SSR speeds exceed the CSR speed in a straight line.

Your assumptions are fact less. Take your concerns to your commission. Not to the Board of Directors.

Lets build a data base of the comparisons you have made from previous nationals, compare all of the times of BSH and 20SSH. Lets compare that data to the times of your protected restricted 302 vs. the CSH times. Go back and do your home work plot a graph with a trend and lets talk about some data based decisions. If you have data, that everyone can see and we can all confirm, I am willing to listen.

I am sure you test with a GPS, a Tach or a data logger. you don't assess your equipment based on what some saw from the beach vs. some one else's observation from the beach.

[reed28n]

Motor purchases

Scott thanks for pointing this out, Donny does still run an 80 engine, and would have at this years Nationals. But, we are going 302 direction. Why because they are inexpensive & reliable. This was the engine that should and will be the engine of choice for our family. SO this is not about protecting our trailer box like you think. We are buying 2 302 engines for under the price of 1 Sidewinder.

I endorse your direction to go to a different motor. Now you will test it against what you have and run what is best. But why are you SO concerned about others spend their money. If our sport attracts a whole bunch of people that want to spend $4800 on a motor why do we want to tell them no?

Because you think that cheaper is better? Allow the choice and allow them all to run. The motor has been legal for multiple seasons and is gaining traction....

[Matt Dagostino]

New engines

These are questions that should be asked and are neglected in your proposal to get rid of the motor.
.

Kyle
As a Commissioner who voted and spoke against Sidewinder 20ci going into 20ssh class in 2011 my position was simple: why do we want to create conflicts and PARITY issues in the second largest class in APBA by introducing a NEW AVAILABLE MOTOR into a class that has a NEW AVAILABLE MOTOR??????

My 40 years experience in APBA/Stock Outboard politics tells me that the closer you can stay to 'one motor per class' the better off you are. The OPC Division struggled for years by having multiple NEW AVAILABLE engines in each class and it was a nightmare.

It is one thing to introduce NEW AVAILABLE engines into classes that need them, but it makes no sense to me to bring them into classes like 20ssh that have a NEW AVAILABLE engine in the Yamato 302, And Kyle, who knows what tomorrow might bring as you infer. Hell, Yamato, Sidewinder and Mercury may all dissapear...........

[reed28n]

Petition

Please attach the petition to this thread so all the drivers who participated in 20SSH this year have an opportunity to weigh in.

And lets start a list of Y80's for sale that can beat the 302's since several past national champs in the class are going to 302's...... Donnie Allen, Mike Pavlick, Joe Pater, Dana Holt,

And Divisional Champ Fran Johnson, Billy Allen switched to 302......

Side winder is clearly a threat to this class since now a 225 lbs driver has a class other than CSH and DSH that they compete in.

Let's keep all the motors 100 lbs so we can have another class for a 180 lb driver to dominate....

Better yet lets get some facts and some data together before we discourage people that planned to buy sidewinders to enter the class

[csh2z]

I have a solution that I think will make everybody "somewhat happy". I don't have time right now to propose it (I'm at work, busy day) but I will as soon as I have a chance.

[D_Allen_III]

Hi Mike,
This effort you have made to petition competitors of a 30 year+ old motor that some critical parts are in short supply in a class is a short sighted effort.

You do realize that the 302 engine which is still a current engine, has won the last 2 20SSH championships, is the essentially the only engine used in region 10 for 20SSH and is becoming the engine of choice on the national level right? This has nothing to do with saving the 80 engine. The 80 has been getting phased out for 5+ years now and runs about 2 mph slower top speed than the restricted 302 engine. 20SSH is the only class we have in stock outboard that has any kind of parity between 2 different engines in the class.

I think your facts are fairly off base in regards to the motive and the purpose of the petition.

We all know that the only way a manufacture can sell engines is to have the engines be the fastest one competing and be the engine of choice for that class. How do we expect to have both the Yamato and Sidewinder be the engine of choice for people to choose?

I would have been irate if I was Ron Montoya who was sitting on a shed full of engines when a new engine was also approved for the class. We never needed the 20ci sidewinder for 20SSH and unfortunately a commission decided to approve it anyway.

BSH, BSR and ASH are prime examples of how difficult it is to find parity between engines and we are going to expect the commission and parity committees to some how work it out between 3 engines.

I get the fact the 20ci hasn't performed close to the 80 or 302 at this point, but what is the eventual plan? We always talk about having direction and making progress, what do we think will be good for the 20ci Sidewinder? Will it always run 3 mph slower and will people want to race? I tend to think not, especially since this is called boat racing.

So if all goes as planned for the sidewinder and it gets faster and becomes competitive, say 2 years down the road, we are going to have a major problem on our hand. Which one should be considered the primary engine? The 302 of the 20ci Sidewinder? Let the commission at the time decide? Made up of representatives serving different regions, who need different things and have different opinions? Have the manufactures come in and give they pitch and see what people think?

Why would we even put ourselves in that predicament if we don't need it based on the fact that we have a 302 engine that already fits the need. I just don't understand why we would want 2 current production engines in one class.

[D_Allen_III]

Please attach the petition to this thread so all the drivers who participated in 20SSH this year have an opportunity to weigh in.

And lets start a list of Y80's for sale that can beat the 302's since several past national champs in the class are going to 302's...... Donnie Allen, Mike Pavlick, Joe Pater, Dana Holt,

And Divisional Champ Fran Johnson, Billy Allen switched to 302......

Side winder is clearly a threat to this class since now a 225 lbs driver has a class other than CSH and DSH that they compete in.

Let's keep all the motors 100 lbs so we can have another class for a 180 lb driver to dominate....

Better yet lets get some facts and some data together before we discourage people that planned to buy sidewinders to enter the class

Scott,
5+ years ago this engine was pitched to the commission to be a new engine for the 25SSH class, which at the time, was still a somewhat relevant class. The weight of driver you are referring would have been perfect for that. What happened to that plan?

[14J]

Thoughts

• Speed: I get it, if the SW is a 68 MPH ride it doesn’t work so why aren't we talking about the parity of the SW 20 ci and jumping right to the elimination of the motor? Entirely two different agenda's. Note: We have yet to produce any hard data as to the speed of the SW 20SSH package.
• Speed: Is a 67mph restricted 302 what we want the 20 class to be? Don't tell me the good ones aren't going that fast, I know they are.
• What is 20SSH: How did the restricted 302 become the 20 class, wasn't it originally introduced as a Band-Aid?
• Now What: What do I now do with the 2 SW 20ci motors I cut a check for 3 weeks ago? I waited on this purchase for several years to make sure the engine would stick and that the political climate was settled and now we are discussing eliminating it? Please don't answer run B, I’m FAT!
• Yamato: Why do we continue to refer to the 302 as new, it's used!
• Yamato: As far as availability goes are we any more confident that Yamato continues to export engines or that the EPA keeps ours doors open over the sustainability of SW?
• Cost: 4,500. Please! Have you stopped by your local recreational vehicle dealer lately?
• Cost: Curious, why is a 2k motor our biggest priority? These conversations always seem to circle back to money. “How do we make the sport affordable” is subjective. Who is our audience? Availability, current production, we owe it to this guy or another, it’s all crap. We continue to work toward attracting those who can’t afford to race. I own Yamato's, love them but tell me what I need and I will pay what it costs.
• Yamato: We're Japans scrap yard and that is the only reason these motors are cheap. Don't think for a second that Yamato cares or that Rick is not making a profit (and good for Rick, he should). Note: Please don’t jump on the Rick is not making anything and that he simply loves us. I know what this equipment is hitting the resale market for, import costs, etc. Is anyone getting rich, or course not but there is margin in the product.

That’s my 9 cents on the topic.

[14J]

Reed is on a flight, PAUSE the BATTLE