Don't let Region 6 kill Sidewinder

[B Walker]

Bill, all we are doing is following the rules of our by laws. The drivers of the class will decide the outcome.

The leadership has a long history of following the vote of the members when it suits them and ignoring their responsibility to the bylaws of the ABPA organization. Can you have it both ways?

It is too much to expect the drivers in an existing class that know they cant buy good equipment no matter how much money they have because legacy families owned the good stuff and the newest racers cant afford the pricetag of a Sidewinder.

At the end of every petition and every vote the leadership should be asking themselves: "will this build membership or limit membership"

BRAD Walker

[pav225]

I believe Bob Wartinger just set a record with a new, untouched Yamato 302.

That speaks volumes for the ability for someone to buy a motor and be competitive.

[Big Don]

I race in 20 ssh i run a y302 with the restrictor but you guy set up this petition to be voted at the national metting ,my problem is i cant afford to make the national meeting every dime i make goes to making as many races as i can so for a guy that races in this class how do i voice what i think where it will matter i cant ,but i will say on here that i dont see why there should be a problem with the sidewinder if im not mistaken there was atleast 1 or2 competingat wilson nc last month and it didnt outrun a y80 that was running so in short dont see a reason to vote it out

To be clear, the petition is to get on the ballot if the drivers want the 20S Sidewinder in the 20ssH class. This does not go to the SORC. Once we have enough petitions, we will send them to APBA and they have to put it on the ballot. We all know the SORC does not always make the best decisions. This is a member association and the members of the class will decide its fate.

In regards to the mailed petitions. I googled every 20ssH driver and if I could find your address I mailed one to you. I could not find everyone's address. I would be happy to mail one to anyone that wants one.

[daveracerdsh]

petition

I do not think you have to be at the meeting to vote on something like this. The ballot comes in the mail after the meeting is over. Dave

[Big Don]

The leadership has a long history of following the vote of the members when it suits them and ignoring their responsibility to the bylaws of the ABPA organization. Can you have it both ways?

It is too much to expect the drivers in an existing class that know they cant buy good equipment no matter how much money they have because legacy families owned the good stuff and the newest racers cant afford the pricetag of a Sidewinder.

At the end of every petition and every vote the leadership should be asking themselves: "will this build membership or limit membership"

BRAD Walker

Brad, I can tell you this. My father fought hard to get the members their rights as did others. If APBA does not follow the by laws the can expect a hard fought battle. I have had several people outside our organization look at our bylaws and we are within our rights to do what we are doing.

In regards to equipment, the 302 was available when the engine was put in. As a matter of fact Rick Montoya was sitting on 67 of them at that time, in my opinion what we told/did by doing what the SORC did was just wrong.

[B Walker]

Here is the article on Wart:

http://www.thenewsguard.com/sports/a...a4bcf887a.html

I don't see a 20SSH number.

Did he do it somewhere else? Also if it was the new Kilo record and he did it with an "out of the box" 302 and no highly competitive Y-80's? If so, your kind of making my point.

If he bumped the actual number on the existing record of course it is a different discussion.

Let me know.

BW

[Matt Dagostino]

Tabor City

I race in 20 ssh i run a y302 with the restrictor but you guy set up this petition to be voted at the national metting ,my problem is i cant afford to make the national meeting every dime i make goes to making as many races as i can so for a guy that races in this class how do i voice what i think where it will matter i cant ,but i will say on here that i dont see why there should be a problem with the sidewinder if im not mistaken there was atleast 1 or2 competingat wilson nc last month and it didnt outrun a y80 that was running so in short dont see a reason to vote it out

Tommy
The petition will be available for you to review as a eligible driver at Tabor City. The petition has a 'explanation/summary' for your review and consideration.

One of the MAIN issues in this controversy is/was the SORC's willingness to allow two currently produced engines (Yamato 302 vs. Sidewinder) to compete in the same class. The arguments are spelled out in the petition for your review and every other 20ssh driver that competed in 2013.

[pav225]

It is too much to expect the drivers in an existing class that know they cant buy good equipment no matter how much money they have because legacy families owned the good stuff and the newest racers cant afford the pricetag of a Sidewinder.

B Walker,
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with your last post.

In addressing your quote above, Bob used an "out of the box" Y302 to set a record. They are available to racers at an affordable price.

If you are interested in racing 20ssH there are also some great Y80s for sale. You really can't go wrong with either motor!

Best of Luck,
Mike

[B Walker]

Brad, I can tell you this. My father fought hard to get the members their rights as did others. If APBA does not follow the by laws the can expect a hard fought battle. I have had several people outside our organization look at our bylaws and we are within our rights to do what we are doing.

In regards to equipment, the 302 was available when the engine was put in. As a matter of fact Rick Montoya was sitting on 67 of them at that time, in my opinion what we told/did by doing what the SORC did was just wrong.

Hi 3,

I am advocating following the bylaws. If a petition is duly formed, presented, processed and presented then let the class vote.

I am saying the process for forming, presenting, processing and presenting a petition to the drivers in a class is an inherently flawed process.

More clearly: the process of empowering the individual at the class level destroys the organization as an entirety.

I have a 50 year decline in membership to back me up, what do you have?

I am not advocating the destruction of the individual member. I am advocating leadership that understands and embraces the by-laws as a whole and understands that membership growth solves all problems.

BW

[Big Don]

Hi 3,

I am advocating following the bylaws. If a petition is duly formed, presented, processed and presented then let the class vote.

I am saying the process for forming, presenting, processing and presenting a petition to the drivers in a class is an inherently flawed process.

More clearly: the process of empowering the individual at the class level destroys the organization as an entirety.

I have a 50 year decline in membership to back me up, what do you have?

I am not advocating the destruction of the individual member. I am advocating leadership that understands and embraces the by-laws as a whole and understands that membership growth solves all problems.

BW

Well, some would say the commissions have caused a lot of the decline not the class members.

[B Walker]

B Walker,
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with your last post.

In addressing your quote above, Bob used an "out of the box" Y302 to set a record. They are available to racers at an affordable price.

If you are interested in racing 20ssH there are also some great Y80s for sale. You really can't go wrong with either motor!

Best of Luck,
Mike

Hi Mike,

I think you know the problem I was trying to address.

Not all Y-80's are created equal. The point of your petition is to make the 2 or 3 amazing Y-80's that have been identified over the last 30+ years be dominant for some period into the future.

You don't really consider how that will effect the 80 (20%) plus new drivers APBA gets every year and bail on the program 2-5 years later when they realize through pit talk there are "special" motors.

This effort you have made to petition competitors of a 30 year+ old motor that some critical parts are in short supply in a class is a short sighted effort.

Congrats for you and your team8's if you succeed for a political victory but boatracing and APBA as a whole will suffer.

Vote away.

Brad Walker.

[B Walker]

Well, some would say the commissions have caused a lot of the decline not the class members.

Really? Don't the commissioners have a duty to represent the membership?

[bill boyes]

What a crock. Y 80 and 302 votes vs 5 or so Sidewinders votes. Come on. I remember the OMC restrictor vs the Merc 15 deal. And you guys talk progress??

[Racerkyle20]

I'm going to thoughtfully present this

I want to make a few things clear before I make a statement about this subject.

1. I am a 20SW owner/driver
2. I am a 302 yamato owner/driver
3. I am a SORC member of region 10 (for 2014 as well)
4. I have never won a race with a 20SW
5. I believe new motors in all Stock classes are needed for the survival of outboard boat racing.
6. I have the utmost respect for Mike Pavlick and Don Allen, in fact I would consider them friends and good people.

I get the logic of the proposed vote to remove the 20SW. What I don't get is the evidence used. They state Dylan Runne ran a fast time with a 20SW in BSH (restricted) once. That's it? That's what we are basing this on? First let's consider said BSH rig. Dylan is very fast, in fact he set multiple speed records this year in BSH/BSR. This is the same rig that Ed Hearn has presented to the SORC as fact that the restricted 20SW is TOO fast for BSH. A BSH rig is 365lbs. A 20ssh rig is 400lbs. That also needs to be considered in looking at heat times.

Now that example is pretty minimal research for the statement of their case, but I would argue it's evidence the 20SW is too fast in BSH not 20ssh. Where's my times from 20ssh at New York? I bet they were pretty far off Dylan's....

Patrick and I ran the 20SW in 20ssh in 2013. I raced it 10 times to accumulate 275 points. That's 27.5 points a race...MMMM.... Our program started very slow with trying to find the right boat, it took 3, which we did not find until New York. Next is prop work. We went through CSH wheels, 302 restricted wheels, BSH hot rod wheels, and one from Mr. Dewald. Out of about 10 wheels we tested/tried this year we found our fastest speed of the year was 63 mph. 63 miles per hour in 20SSH. (and that's a generous 63, lots of times reading 61-62). That's a lot of time in the back of the pack. Most of you know a nationally good 20ssh yamato will go close to 66 mph.

I am fighting an uphill battle in boat wakes as well. Yamato's run bigger boats with bigger wakes. Our new Runne BSH/20ssh boat is small, light, and compact. I get in rough water and i'm done. I tell you all this because I believe we are rushing to conclusions that the 20SW will 'destroy' a 302 yamato and go 70mph at some point. I don't think that will ever happen.

I think the 5 20SW running 20SSH in the country are not a threat to ANY yamato owners/drivers. The 20SW do have some punch, it's nice, but will they ever match a 302 66mph in a bigger boat? probably not.

I'm not here to protect Patrick and I's investment either. If this goes through, we'll sell the 20SW to someone in the midwest who wants to run BSH/BSR and continue running CSH/CSR. We do need to remember Sidewinder LLC has done a hell of a lot for stock outboard boat racing in the past decade. They're producing outboard racing motors with no financial gain and like it. They're doing this because they love the sport and all they have ever gotten from anyone is grief. If this goes through I could see Sidewinder packing up and saying to hell with ya'll. And I wouldn't blame them.

We need Sidewinder. We need the 20SW. We take Yamato's for granted. You think they'll always be there? Right now in this country there are 8 brand new 302's unsold. And they came from England. Ricky's shipment of 30 motors from Japan is in route. When will we see them? We don't know yet. The process to get 2 stroke motors into this country legally is mind boggling. Talk to Ricky about this, he has more details and can back up what i'm saying. The EPA does not want 2 stroke outboards in this country, period. There will be a day when we cannot import 2 stroke outboard motors and will need to either make do with what we have (SW/MERC) or develop 4 stroke motors. Also take into consideration the state of Japan. Do you know industry there still only works 4-6 hours a day because of the tsunami? They have to shut power off daily to save it. That country is still in terrible shape after the earthquake/tsunami. That effects the production of 302 yamato motors.

20SSH drivers can do what they want at this point. I'm giving you some things to think about. If you feel the 20SW is such a threat to yamatos or just think i'm full of ****, then vote it out of the class. But take into consideration the consequences of such an action before you do.

[daveracerdsh]

20ssh

I am sitting in a hotel bar in Honolulu....looking over the posts on both the APBA social site and Hydroracer concerning the Sidewinder in 20SSH. It has not ruined my vacation.....but it sure has made me think a lot about where as a racing group were are headed. I am also a member of the SORC....going on my 10th year, and I also like and respect Big Don and Mike Pavlick. However, in this case, I think the petition thing is dead wrong. The members of each region elect us....stock commissioners...to make decisions for them on racing rules, new motors, the list goes on and on. Nothing new there. So Don....you are saying that the 2010 commission made an error in approving the Sidewinder 20 into 20SSH. I am the person that made the motion to make the motor legal. Maybe this post will seem a little disjointed, but are you not saying in a roundabout way that decisions made by the SORC really do not matter in the end? We all pay good money, most of which comes out our own pockets, to attend national meetings. What is the point of going if we approve something and then have it overturned by petition a few years later? How many racers in region 7 run the Sidewinder in 20? Have they won any races? I see that as an argument you guys use BSH times. To me, that is like comparing apples to oranges. We do not run BSH in region ten, but is not the weight 40lbs lighter then 20SSH? How can you compare the 2? Also...yes...20SSH is the biggest class in stock. Good. But, was the 302 Yamato brought in for 20 or was it brought in for CSH and OSY? That answer is simple. And, what is the huge deal with having TWO new motors available for a class? Is that not a better thing then having just one? When you go to the local tire store and need tires for your tow rig don't you want a choice? Assuming they provide about the same performance? And....if this goes thru....guess what happens next?
The A stock drivers are going to do the same thing and pretty soon we have no new motors available in A. It could happen in D too. In closing, I have a call into Ed Runne to see what Sidewinder has to say about all of this. If I was them....and this goes thru, I would give the big middle finger to APBA and find some other way to spend my time and money. I just hope you guys have really thought this thing thru....Just my 2 cents worth. Dave