SORC Please Consider "Parity"

[jswain3]

302 Whitney Point

John,

Mike Perman won CSH (2008) in Whitney Point.
The course at that nationals had the largest straightaways that I have ever seen. However, Mike won with a 302. Also, correct me if I'm wrong...but I think he was starting in lane 1.

I guess the Permans are the only ones who can do the, "impossible" and win w/a 302 on a course with an incredibly long run to the first turn.

[guedo499]

John,

Mike Perman won CSH (2008) in Whitney Point.
The course at that nationals had the largest straightaways that I have ever seen. However, Mike won with a 302. Also, correct me if I'm wrong...but I think he was starting in lane 1.

I guess the Permans are the only ones who can do the, "impossible" and win w/a 302 on a course with an incredibly long run to the first turn.

That course was long!! I heard something almost 1.7 mile course? I remember running my DSH there - fast as I have ever gone on a race course in a DSH. (I just pulled up my data for that course, I went almost a full 2mph than I have ever gone in a DSH)

You might just be right about Moby Grape Racing - If I were to give a Power Ranking for Region 10 CSH, MGR would be my uncontested #1. Just last year alone, three different drivers stepped into their rig and won. Maybe Mikey will be able to change up his schedule and show up to prove your point.

But again, I'll go back to the thread's discussion topic - parity. A win every once in a while, or even half of the time, for currently manufactured motor is not what it should be; the currently manufactured motor should be clearly dominate motor. If I remember my stats class correctly, a dominate feature is qualified when it "wins" more than 68% of the time, one standard deviation.

[jsilvestri]

I really hate to post to these types of threads as everyone has an opinion and that opinion probably isn't going to change. However, with that said I am going to offer my opinion. Parity should be thought of as everyone having the ability to purchase new available equipment, the same equipment the fastest racer in each respective class has. Whether or not they are able to run up front or not should be determined by the amount of work they put into the equipment as well as their ability to drive. This is racing therefore not everyone is going to win whether they own new or old equipment and whether they are good or bad drivers. The idea that a new person should be able to purchase new equipment and run up front with no or minimal amount of work put into that equipment and or no or minimal amount of driving skills is ridiculous!

I agree that the new available engines should be the motors of choice. How do we achieve that? It’s the million dollar question. The leaders of APBA and the stock category are the ones that should make that decision. If you want to be a part of the decision making process then you should get yourself appointed, voted into office or write your region reps with your ideas. To continuously rant here on HR is pointless and makes you as well as the rest of us look silly.

By the way, the stock category could look at the mod category and learn a little something about multiple motors per class as most if not all of the mod classes are set-up this way and it works!

If you want to see what a really fast 302 CSH looks like, watch Billy Allen as he is really fast and I’m sure with a good start and some good driving, which is a given with him, would give the best 102 a run for the money!

[Guest]

I really hate to post to these types of threads as everyone has an opinion and that opinion probably isn't going to change. However, with that said I am going to offer my opinion. Parity should be thought of as everyone having the ability to purchase new available equipment, the same equipment the fastest racer in each respective class has. Whether or not they are able to run up front or not should be determined by the amount of work they put into the equipment as well as their ability to drive. This is racing therefore not everyone is going to win whether they own new or old equipment and whether they are good or bad drivers. The idea that a new person should be able to purchase new equipment and run up front with no or minimal amount of work put into that equipment and or no or minimal amount of driving skills is ridiculous!

I agree that the new available engines should be the motors of choice. How do we achieve that? It’s the million dollar question. The leaders of APBA and the stock category are the ones that should make that decision. If you want to be a part of the decision making process then you should get yourself appointed, voted into office or write your region reps with your ideas. To continuously rant here on HR is pointless and makes you as well as the rest of us look silly.

By the way, the stock category could look at the mod category and learn a little something about multiple motors per class as most if not all of the mod classes are set-up this way and it works!

If you want to see what a really fast 302 CSH looks like, watch Billy Allen as he is really fast and I’m sure with a good start and some good driving, which is a given with him, would give the best 102 a run for the money!

Someone from the Midwest got his head on straight! What a change.

[Tim Weber]

Kudos Joe,

I've only ran against Joe a time or two and it was a blast. We ran CMR at last years Huntington regatta. Myself, Eric Vanover and Joe beat each others brains out. We all had different style boats, different pipe set ups etc. We split heats between the three of us both days. That was parity.

So much of what being competitive is about is experience. You have to take your lumps. When I was a kid I ran for 6 or 7 years before I won a race. What do the three of us have in common? We all work hard and drive somewhat decent. How did we get there? How does anybody get to a competitive level?

You have to have a mentor to help keep you pumped up when things aren't going well. I had my grandpa. Joe has Moose. We all know about Eric's dad.

Remember to share the wealth of your knowledge.

Tim

[14J]

If you want to see what a really fast 302 CSH looks like, watch Billy Allen as he is really fast and I’m sure with a good start and some good driving, which is a given with him, would give the best 102 a run for the money!

Generally speaking yes. He is one of if not the best. The top 5-6 102's in the country I would agrue no. 2012 Northeast Divisionals on a medium course at best is a prime example. Nothing would have beat Clark that day.

[jeff55v]

I agree that the new available engines should be the motors of choice. How do we achieve that? It’s the million dollar question.

Simple.
Either establish a reasonable timeline to outlaw the old engines. (And stick to it) Or make the new engines faster than the old engines.
Simple.

[14J]

I guess the Permans are the only ones who can do the, "impossible" and win w/a 302 on a course with an incredibly long run to the first turn.

Looks that way. I just went back and watched all the C hydro footage from the last two nationals (Wakefield, Grass Lake) and John's point looks real clear to me. There are anomalies in any trend.

P.S. I have both motors so I'm calling it like I see it.

[mike_280]

Generally speaking yes. He is one of if not the best. The top 5-6 102's in the country I would agrue no. 2012 Northeast Divisionals on a medium course at best is a prime example. Nothing would have beat Clark that day.

Are you talking Standish, ME? That's not how I remember it. Going off memory...
Heat 1:
Clark 102
Howe 302
Allen 302
Schmidt 302

Heat 2:
Schmidt 302
Allen 302
Clark 102
Howe 302

Seems like pretty good parity to me. Leave it alone. (That said Clark does have an exceptional 102)

[Charlie Pater]

I see what John sees.

I personally believe the 302 is a faster motor in the west only because us in Region 10 use them week in and week out. Most of us in the west threw out the 102's years ago. Most guys in the midwest and east coast that still run 102's and have not switched to 302's because they don't have to. They tested and made their motors fast 20 years ago and they are still fast(example Joe Pater). What is their motivation to switch to a 302? Look at the A class. Sidewinder came in and should be the dominte motor from here on out. But people won't be holding on to OMC's because they're fast (like the 102's).

Look at the history of winners at nationals with 302's (if there's anymore that i'm not listing let me know):
04 or 02? OSY-JMK
07 CSH- Mike Perman
08 CSH- Mike Perman
10 CSH-JMK
10 25ssr- JMK
10 CSR- Me
11 CSR- Me
Any 20ssh's?

John Peeters, pretty sure your OSY is not a 302? not sure...

Anyway, Pretty sure that's all of them, but it's pretty clear Region 10 has figured something that everyone else has not. No one outside the west has won with 302's. My guess is we just run the hell out of them and stopped racing 102's. That CAN"T BE THE CASE ANYMORE. Somehow the 302 needs to be the C classes motor of choice for west, midwest, east, south racers. not just west.

If John decides to run his 102's in stock he is validated in doing so. Just look at nationals winners and you can determine that on your own. Me? i'll stick with my 302 still.

Kyle your post is very perceptive. The Midwest and east coast racers had done their homework on the 102 and had little incentive to work on the 302. Also, I strongly believe many did try the 302 with disappointing results and gave up on it way too early. There is information to support that point of view.

I did some checking on 302 performance by Midwesterners in 2012. The 1 mile record was set with a 302 at Lakeland. This was not the 95% but a true record that eclipsed a 102 record. At the Grass Lake nationals the fastest CSH heat was by a 302. That heat was nearly 4 seconds faster than the second fastest heat. The second fastest was by a 102 in the finals and in that heat the 102 was FIRST out of the first turn. In the 302 fastest heat, the driver was NOT in first coming out of the first turn. Based on those race results, I believe that in 2012 the 302 may even have been the motor of choice.

[daveracerdsh]

Parity

With the national meeting coming up next week...it sure seems that everybody has an opinion on what should be done parity wise. I have found this thread to be very informative to how I am going to approach the A stock parity issue. One camp wants the OMC A motor to dominate, while another camp wants the Sidewinder to be the way to go. I suppose there are 2 ways to look at it...If I had a fair amount of money invested in the OMC, I would sure want that motor to be able to compete and have a reasonable chance of winning a local race, as well as having a reasonable chance of winning nationals etc. But....are we going to penalize the Sidewinder racers that have put a lot of time into boat and prop development.....everything being done within the rules that we put forth...and handicap them for future races? I may have the year wrong....but I think the last new OMC A was made in 1992....21 years ago. Should that motor still be the dominate motor in the class? At some point in time....it will be harder and harder for racers to find parts for that motor, as I found out with the 44XS. Eventually, if racers want to run in A stock, and have a decent chance of winning,they will need to pony up the money to purchase either a new or used Sidewinder. But that being said..I do not want to lose current A stock racers. That is what we are facing in my view. Dave

[mercguy]

I've enjoyed reading this entire post.

Let me ask: When the Champion Hot Rod came into being, did APBA help get it running? Nope! When Kiekhaefer threw the toilet bowl (20H Converion, for you newby's ... huh??) into the mix, did he ask for help to make it run? Nope. Because the engines ran right out of the freaking box!!! Today, the Sidewinder has been a totally different story hasn't it? Like, I mean, has the design been finalized yet???

Okay.. let's jump to the Tohatsu. Back at day one: Bass Machines said let it run with 16:17 gears. Bob (the safety guru) said it runs safer with the gearfoot up near the bottom of the boat. So what's APBA do.... with the Sidewinder.. they help redesign the thing. With the Tohatsu... incredulusly they slap a rule that the gearfoot must be run DEEPER than the Bob Wartinger Test report recommends!! And, to add a total hypocrisy, APBA puts this in a Safety Rule no less. And, just for good measure the SORC imposes a 28 degree timing restriction along with a requirement that Tohatsu reed stops be installed on Boyesen reeds. Credit should be allowed to the parity comittee for allowing the Boyesen reeds. However Boyesen reeds were not designed to have reed stops installed! (no performance advantage).

So, What's happening to D in APBA? D runabout is extinct!! Except at Topo. And D hydro didn't even have eliminations at the Nats. It's dying in APBA and there is no focus on the fact.

Is the 44XS still a viable motor? You bet! But, you need to get Trident Racing or Daren Goehring to build you one, unless you think you're good enough. OR.. you can buy a RAM50 from me..., pull the rewind and go racing. I took over building the Tohatsu D motor from Bass Machines two years ago. Bass had had enough of the politics and BS. Sid Bass will continue to supply the towers, brackets, and lower units to me and to racers around the world. But, the complete engine package will come from Maine.

And, i'll close with this: APBA can impose all the hypicritical restrictions they wish, but the engine will remain available to the racing organizations that want to run the class. In essance , everyone else can kiss my ++++.

Alex

:like:

[Racerkyle20]

Kyle your post is very perceptive. The Midwest and east coast racers had done their homework on the 102 and had little incentive to work on the 302. Also, I strongly believe many did try the 302 with disappointing results and gave up on it way too early. There is information to support that point of view.

I did some checking on 302 performance by Midwesterners in 2012. The 1 mile record was set with a 302 at Lakeland. This was not the 95% but a true record that eclipsed a 102 record. At the Grass Lake nationals the fastest CSH heat was by a 302. That heat was nearly 4 seconds faster than the second fastest heat. The second fastest was by a 102 in the finals and in that heat the 102 was FIRST out of the first turn. In the 302 fastest heat, the driver was NOT in first coming out of the first turn. Based on those race results, I believe that in 2012 the 302 may even have been the motor of choice.

Who had the 302 at grass lake with the fastest time? The two fastest guys on the water that I saw were pater and swain, both 102's. One illigal unfortunately, but clearly pater's 102 motor is the fastest. He personally has no insentive to switch to a 302. Your conclusion that 302 had a better year may be true. I personally set 3 records in CSR/25ssr (2 full, 1 95%) with a 302...

Here's something to chew on. What most of you did not see was Yelm, WA 2012 in September. This IS THE FASTEST WATER i've ever raced on. 1 mile record course top CSH on Sunday had these entries:
Pavlick- 102 (1)
Pater/Allen-102 (2)
Peeters-302 (3)
JMK-302 (which was mine! not letting him barrow anything any more! lol) (4)
Lewis-302 (5)
Nilsen-302 (6)
Sullivan-302 (7)
Bahl-302 (8)
Malhiot in Permans rig-302 (DNF)

rest of region 10 guys entries all 302's. 18 entires total

Who won? Pavlick with allen in second. Go watch the youtube video of Lewis race with Allen in Pater's rig. Allen has about 1 1/2 mph top end on Lewis. Allen passed me like i was standing still (granted i know i have work to do in csh). The point is the 102 won, going away, not even close on a record course. Pavilick was about a straightway ahead.

I personally don't know what, if anything, the SORC should do for CSH. It's a great class that doesn't need really any fixing, except this minor detail. 302's are not nessessarily not being bought because 102's are faster. It is a great cheap way to get into racing still. I do know Ricky's inventory hasn't changed much in a few years, but that could be a number of factors. My CSR is a 302 and I've proven faster than other top 102's. Maybe the difference is between a hydro and runabout....?

Either way it's a fun and healthy discussion. I think we're all on the internet too much and need a boat fix! when's winternationals?!

[Charlie Pater]

Who had the 302 at grass lake with the fastest time? The two fastest guys on the water that I saw were pater and swain, both 102's. One illigal unfortunately, but clearly pater's 102 motor is the fastest. He personally has no insentive to switch to a 302. Your conclusion that 302 had a better year may be true. I personally set 3 records in CSR/25ssr (2 full, 1 95%) with a 302...

Here's something to chew on. What most of you did not see was Yelm, WA 2012 in September. This IS THE FASTEST WATER i've ever raced on. 1 mile record course top CSH on Sunday had these entries:
Pavlick- 102 (1)
Pater/Allen-102 (2)
Peeters-302 (3)
JMK-302 (which was mine! not letting him barrow anything any more! lol) (4)
Lewis-302 (5)
Nilsen-302 (6)
Sullivan-302 (7)
Bahl-302 (8)
Malhiot in Permans rig-302 (DNF)

rest of region 10 guys entries all 302's. 18 entires total

Who won? Pavlick with allen in second. Go watch the youtube video of Lewis race with Allen in Pater's rig. Allen has about 1 1/2 mph top end on Lewis. Allen passed me like i was standing still (granted i know i have work to do in csh). The point is the 102 won, going away, not even close on a record course. Pavilick was about a straightway ahead.

I personally don't know what, if anything, the SORC should do for CSH. It's a great class that doesn't need really any fixing, except this minor detail. 302's are not nessessarily not being bought because 102's are faster. It is a great cheap way to get into racing still. I do know Ricky's inventory hasn't changed much in a few years, but that could be a number of factors. My CSR is a 302 and I've proven faster than other top 102's. Maybe the difference is between a hydro and runabout....?

Either way it's a fun and healthy discussion. I think we're all on the internet too much and need a boat fix! when's winternationals?!

Check the records. Pater at Lakeland for the 1 mile record with a 302 (not the fastest water either) and Pavlick at Grass Lake with the fastest CSH heat time in a qualifying heat with a 302.

Guys, there is no reason to handicap the 102. The 302 is there and 2012 statistics prove it.

[14J]

Are you talking Standish, ME? That's not how I remember it. Going off memory...
Heat 1:
Clark 102
Howe 302
Allen 302
Schmidt 302

Heat 2:
Schmidt 302
Allen 302
Clark 102
Howe 302

Seems like pretty good parity to me. Leave it alone. (That said Clark does have an exceptional 102)

Mike

A few things. You may be correct as I was drying out a motor in heat 2. I'm not suggesting we change anything. Go back and read the logic of this thread and what John is pointing out. If we are going to focus on the the "A" class whether it be perfect parity or a clear direction toward new equipment we had better be consistent with our agenda and message.

With out a doubt the 302 is competitive especially on the local level. I would encourage you to go back to the last 5 C hydro national finals and you will see a clear trend. I'm not just talking about the winner I am talking about 1 - 12. How many 102's vs 302's are in the final heat, etc.

At this point I ask myself why I continually allow myself to get dragged into conversations pertaining to a less than 400 member hobby. Probably because i care. This is what you get when you agree with anyone from the west coast.