SORC Please Consider "Parity"

[reed28n]

Disclaimer

I don't own a SideWinder, we have OMC's
I don't own a Merc, we have OMC's
I don't own a Tohatsu
I haven't restricted my 302 and have a y80

I will race whatever you all decide the motor is....

[PittmanRacing]

Look at the data

I don't claim to be a motor expert, however, if you took the "best" OMC and a good "racing" SW then collect the data you will eliminate boat, prop, and driver. What is the comparision of horsepower, RPM, cubic inches, and powerband of each? Then it seems one could make decisions more scientifically by running them on a dyno.

Also, the Mercury is different in that even if purchased brand new can be used in two classes (J & AX). That is a better "value". My very first new motor purchased when I started racing at 18 was a B Hot Rod and have very fond thoughts about them and the SW. $4800 for one motor for one class does not have the same value proposition. In tough economic times, that is an important factor to consider.

A new (factory reconditioned) 302 for under $3000 has a lot more value.

Paul

[Jim Sweeney]

ash parity

so scott answer my question, how many omc drivers will still be around after 2013? you say you have the best intrest of the sport in mind but your posts dont support that. seems to me you want everyone who wants to have a chance to win have to buy a new sidwinder.
Oh and george, Amy started well ahead of you every heat but you were able to run her down on the outside, fyi.

[pav225]

Back on Track

You have shifted your debate about the actual benefit of parity in all classes and how careful we should be...... .

Scott,
I apologize, we did get off track for a bit. Thanks for pulling us back.

Back to "parity"... I still think it would be beneficial to see you walk through the scenario, and its impact on the A class, of a new motor being significantly faster than the fastest OMCs.

I'm not talking about the George Stillwell rig. George works his butt off and has definitely put a lot of effort in to get the great results they have!! I'm interested in the folks who run mid to back of the pack at local races and can leapfrog Dave by 2 MPH. I'm hoping you can walk it through, so I can better understand how it will help the class.

I would like this to be a healthy discussion and a learning opportunity.

Thanks,
Mike

[reed28n]

Ash

Mike and Jim

Are you sugeesting that the current OMC is a level playing field? With 100 participants we still only have a hand full of OMC's (if all 100 had equal starts and equal drivers) that are competing for a legitimate spot on the podium at the nationals.

I did not state in this thread or in any other thread to allow the Sidewinder to obsolete all of the 100 participants. I have suggetsed that our history has shown that with the right political backing in APBA we did not have an issue allowing the Mercury to obsolete the OMC in the J and AXS class. That being said.

Are we attempting to have all drivers have an equal opportunity to go the same speed in the A class? If so you will have to slow down not only the SW but the very fast OMC's as well. If all OMC's have an equal chance of going the same speed everyone in the class would only have ever owned one motor or you would never care what motor you sold. Are we including everyone or not? We would like to believe we are but the facts will dispute that.

As the motors have been run year after year the speed from the top of the class to the bottom has spread. Dana Holt could likely pull statistics to support that.... and the likelihood that you will buy a top performing motor is narrowing with each year the OMC lives on. Same with 102's, same with 80's.....etc.

So let's focus on the 25% of the motors in the class that can compete for the top due to a horse power advantage. Let's parity the Sidewinder with that portion of the class. But we only get to pick the starting point...... I do not believe we need to parity everytime someone has a great motor. It has not been our history because if it was we would have slowed down Joey Z' 25XS to name one....

And I think we are asking some of the wrong questions when we look at the cost. If all of these sidewinders that everyone has seen all over the country are a threat because they are soooo fast, then SW has done their job in providing a motor for the class that is fast becoming a know commodity and it seems like everyone has access to it.

So, it you were starting out? Would you buy a used motor that you don't know all of the history on? Can't be sure it is legal because you are just starting. Can't be sure what the skirt clearance is so you don't know how long it will stay good. Won't know for sure until you race it for a season at $400 per weekend 6 times for $2400 ----- OR ----- do you buy a know performer and you can be sure your trips won't be wasted on learning about your horse power and you can focus on props and driving.

I know my answer..... what is yours? Don't make the parity a moving target. Set it once, set it at an attractive speed that makes it a viable choice for a current driver or a new driver. Don't slow it down to the point that only the absolute best OMC's will win (which is what we have now)

Looking forward to that beer and viewing you video at Whitney Point! :-)

[pav225]

.

I can't speak for the Sidewinder folks directly, but I kind of think you did disrespect them..

Mr Perman,
Great to see you at Yelm!

Please don't misunderstand my comment about effort and work. It was not directed at SW. Personally, I believe Selewach and Runne have done an incredible job making a great motor, with a FRACTION of the manpower that a large outboard manufacturer would have at it's disposal. It's truly remarkable.

My comment was focused on the drivers who switched from OMC to SW and quickly went from running in mid-pack ( no offense drivers) to being 2MPH faster than the fastest A in the country. While it's a great testament to the performance of the SW, I don't believe it's best for the class.

Mike

[reed28n]

Best

Mr Perman,
Great to see you at Yelm!

Please don't misunderstand my comment about effort and work. It was not directed at SW. Personally, I believe Selewach and Runne have done an incredible job making a great motor, with a FRACTION of the manpower that a large outboard manufacturer would have at it's disposal. It's truly remarkable.

My comment was focused on the drivers who switched from OMC to SW and quickly went from running in mid-pack ( no offense drivers) to being 2MPH faster than the fastest A in the country. While it's a great testament to the performance of the SW, I don't believe it's best for the class.

Mike

So waiting for the best OMC in the country to become available is better for the class? I think we would all jump at the chance to go from a mid pack performer to running up front.

I think what you are saying now is worse than threatening the fast guys. Now you are clearly stating that we get to choose how and who we think deserves to run out front. See how slippery parity can be??

[pav225]

Huh??

Scott,
I have no idea what you are trying to say...

For someone to go mid-pack at local races to 2 MPH faster than the fastest ASH in the country, with MINIMAL testing, doesn't seem right. How is that fair to the current racers?

Once again, PLEASE explain to me how this helps the class.

Mike

PS. I bought Sweeney's National Championship D Merc for much less than a new Tohatsu. I believe your criteria has been met, but I still encourage you to reply on this post, because I would truly like to understand how this would benefit the class.

[daveracerdsh]

Parity

I am curious as to how other racing groups....such as Karting, Motorcycles etc....achieve parity within a certain class. Once in a while I watch Motocross, and notice that they have most brands running, Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki etc...I do know they run in CC classes, such as 250..but do they place any restrictions on the motors? (aside from supercharging etc) I do understand that motocross racing seen on TV is prize money motivated, while APBA races are for the most part a non-prize money gig. (I want to see that changed.) I have not carefully read each post in this thread....but I do not think, like I said earlier, that we can afford to lose a large group of racers in A stock or any other class.....But....is the fact that the Sidewinder is beating some pretty fast A OMC's a result of hard work and testing, or the fact that the motor is just plain faster out of the box? It would be wrong to penalize those owners and drivers that have put in a lot of time and effort to make their rig go faster...yet it is also not fair to the other people in the class to have to run against a motor that is clearly faster then what the majority of the people in the class runs. I can see this is going to be a hot topic at the upcoming meeting....I have a few ideas that might work.....but am not going to post them here. Dave

[Tomtall]

It's simple

Leave the Sidewinder as is. Allow all OMC's for 2013 to run nitros oxide kits. Done deal. We will tailor the nitros nozzles pill size as the season progresses to create parity.

My prediction after all the B.S. is over is the OMC engine will be obsolete by 2015. R.I.P. OMC you served a long life for many.

Oh, by the way I have nitrious kits available for sale.

[Ron Hill]

NBRA Will Have An OMC "A" Class in 2014

so Scott answer my question, how many OMC drivers will still be around after 2013? you say you have the best interest of the sport in mind but your posts dont support that. seems to me you want everyone who wants to have a chance to win have to buy a new Sidewinder.
Oh and George, Amy started well ahead of you every heat but you were able to run her down on the outside, fyi.

USTS basically has their own classes in NBRA. I feel NBRA will have a place for the OMC "A" in 2014. Just a feeling, but I know SoCal isn't going to throw away their 12-13 OMC "A" motors....

[Ron Hill]

I'm Actually Surprised How Much Nitrous Oxide Helps

Leave the Sidewinder as is. Allow all OMC's for 2013 to run nitros oxide kits. Done deal. We will tailor the nitro s nozzles pill size as the season progresses to create parity.

My prediction after all the B.S. is over is the OMC engine will be obsolete by 2015. R.I.P. OMC you served a long life for many.

Oh, by the way I have nitrious kits available for sale.

I've been thinking of designing a course wher the last three boats could turn on the short course buoy. But Nitrous Pills,.....this is great!

[csh12M]

Look at it from a selling standpoint

Scott,
I have no idea what you are trying to say...

For someone to go mid-pack at local races to 2 MPH faster than the fastest ASH in the country, with MINIMAL testing, doesn't seem right. How is that fair to the current racers?

Once again, PLEASE explain to me how this helps the class.

Mike

PS. I bought Sweeney's National Championship D Merc for much less than a new Tohatsu. I believe your criteria has been met, but I still encourage you to reply on this post, because I would truly like to understand how this would benefit the class.

It may not be fair to the current racers. However, it is the fact that we always think about the current racers and not the new racers that is the problem.

I know what Dave had to go through to get a good motor to run like he does. It is not all testing and props. If we want to grow and continue to sell our sport to new name racers it has to become easier to compete. That may not seem "fair" to existing racers, but it needs to happen for the sport to move forward. We need to be adding 20-30 racers a year.

I am not saying the A Sidewinder does not need to be tweaked, but I am saying you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint.

[G Stillwill]

The last I looked everyone that enters a race is supposed to have a chance to win. I have never seen a good old boy rule stating that only the hard working and seasoned driver has the right to win. We are not like the boy scouts that get merit badges for what we do. I put just as much time in my stuff that almost anyone out there puts into theirs and still dont win every race. I put a ton of time in the A Sidwider to get it to run and it no where has two mile an hour on the field. The very best that Matt saw on Monday at grass Lake was 56.5 and that was testing all day. The very best I have ever seen was 57.8 on perfect test water. I know for a fact that the very best OMC'S are running 58 + and I know that Dave has seen 60. I have tested three Sidwinders and all are within a mile an hour of each other. There might be one in the Midwest that has two on the field but that is one motor just as there is one motor in other classes that have two on the field. I know of a few right now that would buy the A Sidwinder but are on hold because no one wants to put out that kind of money and have them choked down to run in the middle of the pack. Why would anyone come into this sport knowing that they dont have a chance to win with a Sidewinder or an OMC. To me if I was a manufacturer this is the very last place I would invest my money in and you wonder why no one will make motors for us to use.

[pav225]

Dave

It's funny that you used Dave Bennett as an example for your scenario because he is the one who did the parity testing between the Sidewinder and the OMC....

John,
Good observation. Chosing Dave for this example came about by "accident". I knew Dave came up to race at Fall Grass Lake to wrap up High Points. Since we were both chasing the same goal, we were keeping track of each other's progress at the races.

While it would have benefited me for Dave NOT to win all three races at Grass Lake, it struck me as "not quite right" that he should have a good lead out of the 1st turn and then get passed by 2 MPH by boats that would not normally be up front. Since Dave needed to win, I'm assuming he was running very fast stuff. Perhaps my assumption is wrong??

Mike

PS. I have no idea if Dave supports or rejects my thoughts. Hopefully, he's not ticked I'm using him for an example. After competing with him this summer, I learned what a great guy he is.