SORC Please Consider "Parity"

[pav225]

Cheesy Graph

There continues to be a lot of good input and opinions posted in this thread. Thanks!! I firmly believe that the more input that is provided, the better decisions the SORC can make.

In my original Post, I asked “SORC, please consider “parity” a subject for this year’s National Meeting”. I intentionally used quotes around the word “parity”, because it means something different to everyone and I didn’t think it was my role to define it.

In order to help clarify further, I drew a cheesy graph (see below) of ASH speeds on a 1 Mile Course. The intent of this is to apply some logic as the SORC considers “parity” at the National Meeting.

I don’t run the class, so I took a complete SWAG at the numbers. Throughout the country, and the 100+ ASH drivers there is some distribution of speeds. For the sake of discussion, I chose 54-58 MPH range. I’m sure there are a few outliers that are slower than 54 and faster than 58, but I think the graph will help demonstrate the reason for my request to consider “parity”.
When asking the SORC to consider “parity”, I think it would be helpful for everyone to have an idea of where they believe a new motor should be in relation to the current motor. For the sake of discussion (and that’s the only color markers the kids had) I used red, orange, green markers. PLEASE don’t get hung up the exact speeds that these boxes cover. They are simply estimations and should really be discussed with folks who run the class and have a better idea of the actual speeds. What is important is for the SORC to be intentional and have a plan/vision for where a new motor should fit on the speed curve.

I have 2 red boxes. I believe that if a new motor is too slow or too fast, that it will be bad for the class, the racers, and the motor manufacturer. The Orange and Green boxes can definitely (and should be) debated. For illustration purposes, I put green from about 55.5-57. I don’t know what the correct number is. Beyond 57 and you start to risk current folks quitting or moving to FAH. To be fair, with the graph I show, I would expect that Stillwell will continue to be an “outlier” and go over 58. That is because he works hard and tests and will likely move (stay) at the front of the pack.

As I mentioned above, I don’t know what the magic numbers are. I’m asking knowledgeable folks to provide input. There should also be good discussion on who should test, what boat and props should be used etc. I would think that is the role of the Parity Committee (with direction from the SORC).

Please note that I also put a range of speeds for the new motor. No matter how well built any engine is, it is still a mechanical machine and its performance will be impacted by tolerance stack ups, thermal expansion rates, and a whole host of other factors. George has 2 motors within 1 MPH, I would guess that from best to worst there is no more than 2 MPH in the motors. If so, that is excellent, and good for the class.

My purpose for continuing to post and ask questions, is to allow thoughts/ideas to be shared BEFORE the National Meeting so that folks can have time to gather some data and make better informed decisions in Dallas.

Please share your thoughts/ideas,
Mike

[Dave M]

Nat Meeting

Do you guys really think a week is long enough for the National Meeting ? Looks like you better book a month in DFW to get it lined out.

The need to reduce the number of classes is very real. And there is a lot of discussion on parity. Parity will never exist in boat racing in the way it appears some want it. If you regulate boat design, meaning weight, width, transom, etc, etc, etc and set a weight that is higher than the heaviest person racing the class won't it be hard to achieve perfect parity ?

Tom Lowe has half a good idea. Let natural selection take its course. And no, the AXS and AS classes were removed from the NBRA organization per the request. We added them a few years ago at the request of some folks that wanted to come to the NBRA Nationals and race their equipment. We have never actually raced the class since it was created, so it is eliminated. There will never again be a reference to an APBA class in the NBRA rule book.

[reed28n]

Good for the Sport

Scott,
I have no idea what you are trying to say...

For someone to go mid-pack at local races to 2 MPH faster than the fastest ASH in the country, with MINIMAL testing, doesn't seem right. How is that fair to the current racers?

Once again, PLEASE explain to me how this helps the class.

Mike

PS. I bought Sweeney's National Championship D Merc for much less than a new Tohatsu. I believe your criteria has been met, but I still encourage you to reply on this post, because I would truly like to understand how this would benefit the class.

It is not for you to decide how much testing is required and what we feel is fair as far as effort.

Good for the sport is an option that puts someone in the game with very little knowledge of our sport. Good for the sport is dropping the sense of entitlement you display here. It should not matter how long you race, how many generations you come from or what region you are from. EVERYONE needs to have an equal opportunity. the one single opportunity we have to do that is to offer a power plant that will get any driver in the country in the hunt.

The next great driver may not be a 2nd or 3rd generation racer that has tested every weekend. the next great driver may just have it. The next great driver may just go to go karts if he doesn't see an opportunity to compete in Stock Outboard.

I am sure for every class you can find one deal that will be a great value on used equipment. You point out Jim Sweeny's rig. If you are content with a limited number of options to attract someone who really wants the opportunity to win thanchange nothing.

I would prefer to believe that with a new motor option that will compete you will have a much better chance of attracting 20, 30 or 50 new drivers..... we don't have that band width in used equipment and we never will.

[reed28n]

Graphing

Mike,

I like the graph..... but I believe that if we move the number of racers in the class to right of your graph you will attract more racers. You can do it a couple of ways.

1. Parity the Sidewinder with the fastest OMC's in the country....and they are pretty close.
   
2. Slow down the fastest OMC's and slow down the Sidewinder.
   
3. The SORC buys back any motor that wins the nationals every year and gives it to the last place racer at the nationals.
   
4. Have claim races. where you can claim anyone's motor you want.

[14J]

Parity

You know what needs parity, college football. We need to slow down the machine known as Alabama.

[csh2z]

My biggest problem with the whole parity discussion is our perception of speed. Throughout this thread the one constant we keep hearing is this 2mph advantage. I don't buy it. Lets do some math:
2mph = 35.2"per second, extrapolated out to 1000' straightaway = 33'4". That tells us that with a flying start, assuming full speed at the starting line, if two boats start side by side, th faster boat will have more than a three boatlength lead by the time they each get to the first turn. That is more than one boatlength every 3 seconds at 57 mph.
That is a lot of speed. Much more than what we're seeing between the Sidewinder and the better OMC's or the 302 over the 80"s.
The actual top end speed difference is probably less than 1 mph in both cases. I would say that the Sidewinder advantage over the OMC's is no greater than or different than the 302 over the 80. The characteristic difference between the two motors in each example is astonishingly similar. The 302 in 20SSH and the Sidewinder in A have more low end horsepower than the other motors.
As long as we have multiple motors in the same class, we will have parity issues and these discussions will ensue. It will never end. Somebody will always feel they are being screwed.
With the economy as bad as it has been and as bad as it will be for several more years, we have to do the best we can to maintain that balance through parity. But we have to also plan for when the economy does turn around and layout our ultimate goals for this sport. We need to tell people, both lifers and newbies, with certainty the direction we are headed. And when growth finally does begin we have to find a way to stay on that path. These philosophical issues need to be addressed now. It's not for us, it's for the new people that want to do what we do.

[Big Don]

The last I looked everyone that enters a race is supposed to have a chance to win. I have never seen a good old boy rule stating that only the hard working and seasoned driver has the right to win. We are not like the boy scouts that get merit badges for what we do. I put just as much time in my stuff that almost anyone out there puts into theirs and still dont win every race. I put a ton of time in the A Sidwider to get it to run and it no where has two mile an hour on the field. The very best that Matt saw on Monday at grass Lake was 56.5 and that was testing all day. The very best I have ever seen was 57.8 on perfect test water. I know for a fact that the very best OMC'S are running 58 + and I know that Dave has seen 60. I have tested three Sidwinders and all are within a mile an hour of each other. There might be one in the Midwest that has two on the field but that is one motor just as there is one motor in other classes that have two on the field. I know of a few right now that would buy the A Sidwinder but are on hold because no one wants to put out that kind of money and have them choked down to run in the middle of the pack. Why would anyone come into this sport knowing that they dont have a chance to win with a Sidewinder or an OMC. To me if I was a manufacturer this is the very last place I would invest my money in and you wonder why no one will make motors for us to use.

I have not had time to read this entire thread while I work in Denver, so if this is out of line I apologize. But be very careful comparing speeds with different racers throughout the US. We saw speeds in Yelm that we have never seen at home. I also have to think there is no way Dave would see 60MPH in Wisconsin air. Our ASH was pretty competive a few years back (last time we race at Natioals we place 3rd) and there was no way we were seeing those crazy speeds at home when racing.

[pav225]

True

I am sure for every class you can find one deal that will be a great value on used equipment. You point out Jim Sweeny's rig. If you are content with a limited number of options to attract someone who really wants the opportunity to win thanchange nothing.

I would prefer to believe that with a new motor option that will compete you will have a much better chance of attracting 20, 30 or 50 new drivers..... we don't have that band width in used equipment and we never will.

Scott,
1) As for Sweeney's motor, I was simply replying to your "challenge". Everyone had the same opportunity to buy Sweeney's motor...and I believe the A motors listed are still for sale.

2) We currently have new motors available for just about every class in Stock.
J/AX: Merc Yes, I know this is the J Category, but they run at all our races.
A: Sidewinder
B: Sidewinder
20ssH: Sidewinder and Yamato 302
CSH: Yamato 302
25ssR: Sidewinder and Yamato 302
D: Tohatsu

This is GREAT for the sport, but have we grown the sport by 20, 30, or 50 new drivers?? You make it sound like it will magically happen if we have a new motor. Perhaps I'm missing the growth that has occured in your Region.

Please, again, walk me through how this will support growth.

- Mike

[pav225]

Speeds

My biggest problem with the whole parity discussion is our perception of speed. Throughout this thread the one constant we keep hearing is this 2mph advantage. I don't buy it. Lets do some math:
2mph = 35.2"per second, extrapolated out to 1000' straightaway = 33'4".

John,
Good point!

After a lot of testing and years of racing, I have gotten fairly good and judging speeds from 40-65 MPH in the J and 20ssH/C Classes. I don't watch A enough so I admit that my estimation of folks being 2 MPH faster than Dave is suspect. So, I did the math to see if it was close.

Fall Grass Lake straightaways were about 1100'.
Since the boats aren't at full speed for the entire straightaway, I used 50 MPH and 52 MPH to represent an average down the backstraight.

It takes 15 Seconds @50MPH and 14.42 Seconds @52MPH to travel the length of the straight away. The difference of .58 seconds equates to approximately 44 ft. Or about 5 Boat Lengths. I think our Math is fairly consistent here.

Dave was 3-4 boat lengths out front coming out of the first turn and ended up 1.5+ boat lengths behind going into the next turn. Purely going on MATH, we get a pretty close approximation of 2 MPH faster than Dave.

I believe 2 MPH is fair for this discussion, however I believe that testing needs to be done before any proposed changes are to be considered.

- Mike

[pav225]

Effort = Results

It is not for you to decide how much testing is required and what we feel is fair as far as effort.

Good for the sport is an option that puts someone in the game with very little knowledge of our sport. Good for the sport is dropping the sense of entitlement you display here. It should not matter how long you race, how many generations you come from or what region you are from. EVERYONE needs to have an equal opportunity. the one single opportunity we have to do that is to offer a power plant that will get any driver in the country in the hunt.

Scott,
Great point! I couldn't agree more!! It is not for me to decide how much or how little anyone wants to test. That is a personal decision.

Let's face it, this is RACING! The folks who work harder WILL win. That's not a sense of entitlement, that's a fact and I don't apologize for it.

This is true in all areas of life:
- Kids who study more, get better grades than kids who don't.
- People who work hard will get ahead and make more money than those that don't.
- Sports teams that train better, play better as a team, and work harder, will win.
- Race Teams that work harder than others WILL WIN!

These are simply facts of life.

Let's assume no changes are made to the A SW. A certain percentage of folks migrate to FAH, some quit, and some buy the new motor. Pretty quickly, the hard working teams will be back up at the front of the pack winning races. So, as stated in the thread that started the whole discussion, you tax the entire class $5K, lose some drivers, and eventually end up with the same running order as today. Perhaps my thinking is wrong, which I why I continue to ask you to walk through an example of how this helps the class. Perhaps I am missing something. Please help me understand.

On a side note: I give the SORC (and Dave Anderson) a TON of credit for pushing the 302SSH class. They realized that not everyone wants to spend countless hours working on their equipment or testing, but they want to race and have fun. Well done SORC!!

Mike

[csh2z]

When coming out of the first turn and accelerating down the backstretch, that is where the Sidewinder has its greatest advantage and probably makes up the most distance. It's also going to pull through the slop better than the OMC. That is probably where we need to focus.
We also have to keep in mind that our manufacturers HAVE TO SELL MOTORS, or we could lose them.

[Big Don]

Scott,
1) As for Sweeney's motor, I was simply replying to your "challenge". Everyone had the same opportunity to buy Sweeney's motor...and I believe the A motors listed are still for sale.

2) We currently have new motors available for just about every class in Stock.
J/AX: Merc Yes, I know this is the J Category, but they run at all our races.
A: Sidewinder
B: Sidewinder
20ssH: Sidewinder and Yamato 302
CSH: Yamato 302
25ssR: Sidewinder and Yamato 302
D: Tohatsu

This is GREAT for the sport, but have we grown the sport by 20, 30, or 50 new drivers?? You make it sound like it will magically happen if we have a new motor. Perhaps I'm missing the growth that has occured in your Region.

Please, again, walk me through how this will support growth.

- Mike

Mike this question has been asked many times over the last 2 years or so. When I asked where all the new racers where because we already have equipment available it goes unanswered or I get accused of trying to protect my trailer box.

Our #1 issues is not equipment (even though we do need it, it’s just not going to fix this sport on it’s own) in my opinion the number 1 issues is, the value and what you get out of it. All of us have had discussions with prospective new members. I can’t believe we all have not heard the following…that you only race for 7 minutes a day??? or you only get 6 laps??? or you only get 2 heats? This is a real problem. We love this sport, so we put up with it, but a newbie??? There are too many other options for the same amount of money.

[JP53-N]

Time to consider concepts in proposal "Z" in other thread!

[reed28n]

20, 30 or 50

Scott,
1) As for Sweeney's motor, I was simply replying to your "challenge". Everyone had the same opportunity to buy Sweeney's motor...and I believe the A motors listed are still for sale.

2) We currently have new motors available for just about every class in Stock.
J/AX: Merc Yes, I know this is the J Category, but they run at all our races.
A: Sidewinder
B: Sidewinder
20ssH: Sidewinder and Yamato 302
CSH: Yamato 302
25ssR: Sidewinder and Yamato 302
D: Tohatsu

This is GREAT for the sport, but have we grown the sport by 20, 30, or 50 new drivers?? You make it sound like it will magically happen if we have a new motor. Perhaps I'm missing the growth that has occured in your Region.

Please, again, walk me through how this will support growth.

- Mike

The Sweeny motor concern was addressed. You found one opportunity that was a great rig and a great value. I am sure there have been a few more. but what if we are trying to appeal to a larger growth? Our used equipment won't support bigger growth.

I dream big and I think if we don't think of growth opportunities we will go backwards. We won't magically get anything it will be through the hard work you have been mentioning.

We will notget 20 new drivers that can compete in ASH without a new motor. the motors are not out there. If they were the your graph we be more shped like this.

[reed28n]

Value

Mike this question has been asked many times over the last 2 years or so. When I asked where all the new racers where because we already have equipment available it goes unanswered or I get accused of trying to protect my trailer box.

Our #1 issues is not equipment (even though we do need it, it’s just not going to fix this sport on it’s own) in my opinion the number 1 issues is, the value and what you get out of it. All of us have had discussions with prospective new members. I can’t believe we all have not heard the following…that you only race for 7 minutes a day??? or you only get 6 laps??? or you only get 2 heats? This is a real problem. We love this sport, so we put up with it, but a newbie??? There are too many other options for the same amount of money.

I couldn't agree more with these points. Water time. I have advocated for fewer classes and more heats or races. I would prefer not multiple classes with the same platform but the same class with multiple races. Then you are maximizing your return on money spent.

Its not ROI. This is recreation... not to hi jack this thread.