SORC Please Consider "Parity"

[Team 12R]

could not agree more

I like it..Good question...Let the best stuff win and then everyone will buy that stuff if they want a chance to win and the old stuff will eventually disapear.. You should stop hindering the new stuff.. I guess thats why I left stock

You can put J michael in junk and he will win or get more out of it than you ever imagined so even buying the best is no guarantee and will never get you parity with such a variation in driver skill

I think when you put parity into play you discourage progress and evolution. Do you really think that died in the wool racers like Mike used as an example are going to quit racing because the SW is faster? I doubt it. Guy who spends money on props and tests, tests, tests will be on top of the heap with a new SW or Tohatsu.

"JMK fast even in junk"? Yepp... That dude is a blast to watch.

[raceright]

:

I like it..Good question...Let the best stuff win and then everyone will buy that stuff if they want a chance to win and the old stuff will eventually disapear.. You should stop hindering the new stuff.. I guess thats why I left stock

You can put J michael in junk and he will win or get more out of it than you ever imagined so even buying the best is no guarantee and will never get you parity with such a variation in driver skill

lolololoPat Wright

[krazy karl]

I like it..Good question...Let the best stuff win and then everyone will buy that stuff if they want a chance to win and the old stuff will eventually disapear.. You should stop hindering the new stuff.. I guess thats why I left stock

I agree as I have said in other threads that the SW should not be dumbed down to keep the OMC's in the mix. I also think that the OMC's should maybe be given a lighter weight limit if the SW's start having a clear advantage. Of course this will only do so much and the SW's will be the motor of choice and the OMC's will start to rightfully fade away. And I have an OMC in my motorbox and I am already quite a bit overweight so even a weight advantage would do me no good. Something like this should have been done with the Tohatsu, not hinder it to let Mercs keep up but let the Tohatsu's be developed to their full potential. Then the Mercs would have faded away and we would have more D racing going on with Tohatsu's instead of almost none and a frustrated engine supplier.
kk

[mercguy]

I agree as I have said in other threads that the SW should not be dumbed down to keep the OMC's in the mix. I also think that the OMC's should maybe be given a lighter weight limit if the SW's start having a clear advantage. Of course this will only do so much and the SW's will be the motor of choice and the OMC's will start to rightfully fade away. And I have an OMC in my motorbox and I am already quite a bit overweight so even a weight advantage would do me no good. Something like this should have been done with the Tohatsu, not hinder it to let Mercs keep up but let the Tohatsu's be developed to their full potential. Then the Mercs would have faded away and we would have more D racing going on with Tohatsu's instead of almost none and a frustrated engine supplier.
kk

nicely said Karl!

[raceright]

The 80 yamato was brought to the USA by Jim Mckean in the mid 70's and was ran for several years in a pro class called NOVICE, guys that was 40 years ago.

I purchased one for my son Jimmy and put in on a Craig Craft that was made buy a non racer for my son. We went to the Pro Nationals with it and Harry Pinner came with us. In Jimmy's first race against a full field he got 3 overall, and the only boats in front of him were Sean Mckean and Sean Harrison.
This was true parity, I and Jimmy knew nothing about this engine or boat but a fellow racer helped us and we finished on the podium. Guy's ya have to get back to this, new engines and boats will help the inexperienced young person be competive because the extera 25 years of developing a set up and engine refinement can not be purchased and the new guy is to far behind.

Yes there are many in stock outboard that have skills of set up and boat knowledge that knowwhere on earth is there an equal. (if I owned a Unlimited First thing I would hire Howie Pickerall and Dave young to build the boat and be crew chiefs) They set up one of our capsules and we gained 5 MPH.

Jimmy is 41 now and has for the last five years been running a capsule 500 700 and 1100, He won the North American championship as well as a USTS 700 title against several other past champions (Sean Mckean being one) and every year has had podium finishes at Depue, got plenty of seconds in 500 hydro and 700 hydro just still waiting for first at Depue. But there is no boat or engine advantage as everyone has the latest and the oldest engines are 1993. (with the exception of some 700 konigs) Driving skills show as Amy Nydahl has shown this year.
Stock outboard is the one place that can help APBA so please keep this in mind at the Dallas meeting, a savings account is not needed but new equiptment and ideas is the only hope.

[Racerkyle20]

You can put J michael in junk and he will win or get more out of it than you ever imagined so even buying the best is no guarantee and will never get you parity with such a variation in driver skill

BINGO!

Only because you brought up JMK. I have been racing for 17 years and that guy is the best boat racing driver i've ever seen. Doesn't matter what boat/motor/prop combo he's in, he will make it fast. I've seen it.

I consider myself a good driver (not being arogant, just confident), but JMK hands down makes boats go faster, period. I can't nessesarily do that, esecially with my weight. Tough to make parity with a guy like that.

But besides that extreme example I do think parity can be acheived. BUT you will always have people work harder, put in more money to props, build better boats, thats life and the evolution of the sport of racing. You get beat one year, next year you make yourself better. Simple as that. I think trying to acheive parity between the motors is the smart choice of our sport.

I've really debated myself which direction the SORC should take and i'm almost back to marketing what we have now, making parity between motors in certain classes that need it, and trying to build numbers. Only when we have a solid foundation of members should we be taking motors out of classes, until that time parity is our only option to survive.

[PRO-MOTIONRACING]

On the right track

BINGO!

I've really debated myself which direction the SORC should take and i'm almost back to marketing what we have now, making parity between motors in certain classes that need it, and trying to build numbers. Only when we have a solid foundation of members should we be taking motors out of classes, until that time parity is our only option to survive.

Isn't that what saved the Unlimiteds?

[csh2z]

Mike,
I think the SORC will put the effort forward to try to acheive parity as much as possible in all our classes. We realize how fragile our sport is right now and will do all we can to balance the needs of our existing racers as well as the needs of new racers looking for a level playing field.
It's funny that you used Dave Bennett as an example for your scenario because he is the one who did the parity testing between the Sidewinder and the OMC in the first place. As things evolve with new motors the parity committees have to find ways to keep up. The difficulty with trying to attain parity is, often you don't know the true results until they become obvious. Keep in mind also that when you try to legislate outcome, you are essentially helping one while screwing the other by punishing hard work and achievement.

[pav225]

Good Post

Pat,
Good post/reply. This is more of what I was looking for when starting the thread. A lot of us have opinions, and they are based on past experiences and the current situation in our Region. I think it's very healthy to share what has worked well and why folks believe what they do.

I definitely had a different start to my racing career. I'll have to share that later tonight, because I don't want Gladkowski thinking that I'm slacking at work again.

Thanks for your input,
Mike

[reed28n]

You are proving my point

Scott,
I've never villanized the new motor. I have stated publicly that I think it's incredible what a small number of people have done to create a great A motor.

I'm still not understanding your point on my start. Your original post implied I started in the back and "piled through the pack". After presenting the fact that I started in 3rd and only had to pass 2 boats (hardly piling through the pack) you seem even more adamant that I was TOO fast. I don't understand your point.
Let's review Top 3 at this year's Nationals:
1: Y302
2: Y80
3: Y80

Others have won by larger margins with only 1 motor in the class. Check out AXH for the last 2 years. Laura and Logan were IMPRESSIVE!! I don't have a problem if folks believe we should slow down the 302...as long as its based on facts and consistent with the Vision for Stock.

As far as current motors favoring current Champions. I believe I addressed that with the example of Bennett. He is a Champion with the OMC A and will be Champion with a Sidewinder.

I started this Post to have ideas presented, facts shared, and people to walk through their ideas. I'm missing something in your argument, so feel to use Bennett (sorry Dave) to show how it would benefit the class. I would truly like this to be a learning opportunity, so please walk me through it.

Mike

I am as concerned about the state of Stock Outboard as much as anybody and actually had some skin in the game. I put myself and others out there to make change and it was made pretty clear what region runs stock outboard.

You have shifted your debate about the actual benefit of parity in all classes and how careful we should be...... to trying to explain that your 302 and the 302's of others weren't dominating at Grass Lake.

I have nothing against anyone in APBA and I respect different points of view. I won't apologize for not agreeing with everyone here and stirring a little emotion. This site reveals how competitive boat racers are..... even when typing.

I would say my interpretation of the 20SSH race at Grass Lake can be trusted as much as your ASH interpretation. And further debate about what you saw from the shore vs. what I saw from the shore should be done over a beer.

[Jim Sweeney]

wow

I"m pretty sure most of you are missing Mikes point. We have approximately 100 drivers that raced in ASH in 2012. I think maybe 6-7 of those were sidewinders. At nationals this year sidewinders ran 1 -2 against the fastest omc s in the country. What do you think will realistically happen when the omc drivers cant compete?. I think some might go to mod, A few might even buy the new motor, but some will get frustrated and quit.
Can we afford to loose any more members and still survive?
That is why it is crutial to have parity, and that is what I think Mike is saying.
And buy the way Scott what do you expect to happen when you attack peoples motives and post videos of them. For the record I think the video showed parity.
I will be very interested how the stock catagory deals with this.

[G Stillwill]

Not sure how you can make two different motors equal in every way, both have different power bands and some courses will favor one over the other. The same holds true with the Mercury on some courses. Grass Lake may favor the Sidwinder while other courses favor the OMC. I had one of the best races ever with Amy at Lock Haven Pa which she won three laps almost side by side and two of the laps there was three of us side by side,that was with the same boat and Motor Matt ran at Grass Lake.

[propnuts]

Rewards

No disrespect to the two other drivers, but I am fairly confident that they have not put in a fraction of the time and effort that Dave has, and yet they were significantly faster than Dave.

I can't speak for the Sidewinder folks directly, but I kind of think you did disrespect them. While Dave has been able focus all his testing on props, setups etc., the sidewinder folks started with a motor that would hardly RUN. They started working on getting the Sidewinder to work while it was a probationary motor, not even able to SCORE points, that is hardcore in my book. It is my belief that they are now being rewarded for the tremndous dedication it took to get that motor competitive.

My personal hope is that the SORC do little to nothing to slow down the Sidewinder, but that is easy to say as a guy with no OMCs in my trailer and no interest in running the class for a while. I love the idea that we can tell the new guy he can get an OMC for cheaper if he wants a starter rig, or pony up the $ for a Sidewinder if they want to be competitive in the future. The folks at Racing Outboards deserve that support from us and the SORC as well.

[bill boyes]

Parity is like trying to get an Apple to taste like an Orange.

[reed28n]

Wow is right

I"m pretty sure most of you are missing Mikes point. We have approximately 100 drivers that raced in ASH in 2012. I think maybe 6-7 of those were sidewinders. At nationals this year sidewinders ran 1 -2 against the fastest omc s in the country. What do you think will realistically happen when the omc drivers cant compete?. I think some might go to mod, A few might even buy the new motor, but some will get frustrated and quit.
Can we afford to loose any more members and still survive?
That is why it is crutial to have parity, and that is what I think Mike is saying.
And buy the way Scott what do you expect to happen when you attack peoples motives and post videos of them. For the record I think the video showed parity.
I will be very interested how the stock catagory deals with this.

I am not attacking anyone. I believe the debate was about how the parity should look and not wether there should be parity implemented.

My point was that it is not only sidewinder that is out of balance.

My point is and always has been that we need to target the parity of the currently manufactured motors with the top of the class and not the middle.

Why was it OK to allow the Mercury to dominate the J and AXS classes when the cost of that motor at the time was a significant increase from buying a used OMC? (I would argu that the current upgrade to the sidewinder is close to what is was to upgrade to the Merc to get out front)

It is important to be consistent with what we do and handle all classes and all parity equally. If there is a perception that it has been handle wrongly or injustly in the past lets fix it. We are all invested in this sport with time, money and emotion.

Now if I don't agree with you and Mike.... I am hysterical and out of line???.