Sidewinder report

[Schiada]

I have not raced a small boat (under 13') for a very long time. But have raced in offshore for 25 years. What killed the boat count was, MONEY! and people with too much of it! The entry level class had people come in and took a class from $ 5000 to $25000 to $60000 +++. So all the little guys just left. Then the big bucks moved up to the next class,and it started all over again.

I never worked with the claimer thing but maybe that is the way to go?
In offshore they have tryed the sealed motor thing. But it just took work from other motor builders. And drove the cost up. The people (like me) could not build motors for this class.

Simple Rules,verifiable?

[BP125V]

I don't think we should look at this problem as an ASH or an ASR issue. We have to look at the bigger picture. Each class has to be viewed as a product and we have to be able to list the features of the products.

I am not advocating any direction here other than looking at the sport as a whole. Until we do that and make some of the VERY hard decisions that are looming I feel like real growth will be difficult.

12M

Dean - by this I hope you mean looking at Stock and Mod at the same time.

[csh12M]

No - Stock and Mod are different products

Dean - by this I hope you mean looking at Stock and Mod at the same time.

Actually NO - I don't want this to be view as anti Mod. because I AM NOT. I race it when I can and my Dad is the Mod. Chairman (him and I talk about this a lot). However, I DO NOT think we should combine Stock and Mod. I think the combination of Stock and Mod. would be a classic case of treating the symptom and not the disease. The problem is the membership dwindled in both categories to the point of making it seem like that is the thing to do. It is not the thing to do! MHRA I think has proven that. We are growing, we still cover cost and we do it on a limited Stock schedule. Racer School and 3 in 2 racing is how to treat the problem. Its simple:

1. We need to add members. So we host Racer Schools

2. New members do not want to drive six hours a week to different races. So we hold 4-5 races in our area.

3. New Racers want to race their new rig as much as they can (and usually they only own one to begin with). So we race our core products 3 times over two days. They get more water time only owning one rig.

These points are helping to grow new members AND RETAIN them. Combining Stock and Mod would just further dilute out product and make placing new members in the right class more difficult.

Stock and Mod should also be viewed as products. Their value propositions are different.

Stock should be able to compete on a level playing field with a reasonable amount of effort. Geared towards individuals who are not necessarily engine gurus but want to race and compete.

Mod. should be geared towards the more mechanically inclined individual who enjoys the building of the motor and rig as much as they do racing it.

I would argue that Stock lost track of its product and customer base. Mod. has done A LOT better job of being true to its values and customers (racers).

The rally cry for a while in APBA was "remove the barriers to entry". I actually think this is a flawed idea....we need to "remove the barriers to compete" When I started in the early 80's competing in Stock was more dependent on Propeller and boat set up. In the Mid 90's we let "blueprinting" invade Stock Outboard. The reasoning was sound, we race fishing engine with bad tolerances. So instead of buying 10 to get a good one, you can machine it to specs. Seems like a good idea...but as with everything it continues to evolve. Now to run good in Stock you have to be a top shelf motor builder or have access to one. However, we now have the Yamato 302. It is a racing motor with tight tolerances to the point that they "bet on them in Japan". The new 302SSH class may finally put the stock back into Stock Outboard. A sealed motor, I believe this will really take off. This really may remove some of the "barriers to compete".

Stock Outboard is a hobby. Its not fun to go to a race where you know you have no chance to win and are probably going to race against three boats. "remove some of the barriers to compete" and put some of the fun back into the sport. Less classes more competitors racing on a more even playing field. That will "grow" Stock again, not combining it with Mod.

[MGallagher]

Dean, although I agree with many points you have made in the past, I still have some concerns about the current manipulation of the words "new" and "expensive."

The "new" Mercs, are they not converted fishing motors? And are they still in production? As for expense, doesn't it cost upwards of $3500 to $4000 to get a motor race ready?

The "new" Yamatos, are they straight from the factory or are they raced first then refurbished at the factory, then imported? How many are left? Are they still in production? And yes, that probably is the cheapest route. About $2500 to get a race ready (used?) 302?

Please do not take this as an attack, I have alot of respect for most everyone that races, except for a couple of knuckle heads.

As for bang for your buck, I think Steve Noury has that pretty well taken care of in Region 1. Limited schedule, more water time. I went Karting with my son this weekend and they had 5 classes and loads of track time. I know its apples and oranges, but you get my point im sure.

The main point I would like to make, is that the sidewinder is a 2 stroke racing motor designed and built here where, if demand is there, can be readily available with in 1-2 weeks. I know patience isnt as much as a vurtue as it used to be, but thats not bad.

Im sure i missed a pile of points to be made, but ive got to go for a run so I can compete next year at Whitney Point!

[csh2z]

Dean good 2nd post, I agree 100%. Stock & Mod are two different products.
I'd like to make three simple points about this "A" motor dilemma.
1. We should not design our sport with the philosophy that if we keep the winning veterans happy the sport will grow. I would guess that only about 10% of all the stock outboard members that raced this year, actually won a race without very unusual circumstances. To the other 90%, and that doesn't even include 100% of new boat racers, you probably won't fare much better next year! You don't have the resources to compete with the top 10%. Their experience on the water, behind the wheel is not the greatest factor, although it is a great advantage. The real stumbling blocks are the knowledge and connections to accumulate the the best equipment (boats, motors, props,) and the know-how to make it all work. The Sidewinder helps to level the playing field. We need to give that 90% a punchers chance to compete on the highest level or we'll lose them. And when we lose them so goes our future.
2. Why is it that we don't mind replacing our $4000. boats every five or so years, yet when there is a motor available for $4500. and will be usable for (based on our history) twenty-five to thirty-five years we scream like its the end of the world?
2012 + 30(yrs. avg.) = 2042! Then what will we do? You can even use the same props & boat!
3. I also want to congratulate Donny Allen on his new record in ASH. Everybody knows the OMC can't possibly beat a Sidewinder and yet the record broken was momentarily held by a Sidewinder. That must be one special OMC! I wonder where I could buy one?

[G Stillwill]

I just wanted to add that as a motor builder Im one of the few that has been on the inside of the Sidewinder having had to put mine back together from the Nats. What I found is that there is nothing I can do to make it any faster its all been done right from the factory. It already has the right clearances for racing just as I would make them if I was building the motor and all I did was put a new set of rings in it and put it together. When the two motors we were measured at inspection both motor were to the .001 of each other in every measurement. The three motors that I have run and tested all tach within 50 rpm of each other and run within a mile to a half mile of each other. That said a new person can buy one and go out and run with the best of them right out of the box. No buying someones junk and getting frustrated and leaving the sport. No going through 10 motors to find a good one if your lucky. Get a good boat and a couple props and they are in business. The good thing is the props that work are already out there for the A Sidewinder. The bottom line is this is a real racing motor that doesnt have to be sent to anyone for anything just buy it and race it.

[csh12M]

I am pro growth, not anti Sidewinder but....

I think my posts were viewed as anti Sidewinder. They should not be. My post are however based on selling our classes to new name racers. MHRA just hosted our most successful school to date at our fall Grass Lake. We had 12 people go through the school and 9 raced during the weekend. MHRA Racer School will be attempting to place all these individuals in either J/AX for the kids or in 302SSH and 20SSH/CSH. I am not saying this as anti Sidewinder or any other class for the matter. I am saying it, because they are the classes that make the most common sense. Cheapest entry point. MHRA Racer School is the leading sales person in Stock Outboard and we are telling you that we are selling those products because they are the easiest to sell. Buy a $2,500 motor and race it in two classes. Now with 302 sealed we will be selling the value of racing the sealed class, put on a racing gearcase and try the C class. If you want drop in a restrictor and race a little 20SSH. With the kids, I agree that a Merc. is just as expensive as a Sidewinder, but you get two classes out of it. J and AX and you will sell it for 80-100% of what you paid for it. These are the classes we are selling "new name" racers into.

So, my original question was? How or why do I sell them into the A or B classes? Give me the "sales" pitch for either because right now it sounds like this:

A class sales pitch:

"Hey new name racer, why dont you consider A. You can get into the class really cheap with an OMC motor, but it might be on its way out and does not have much of a secondary market to sell it. Additionally, it has been out of production for years, and you are basically assembling 20 year old parts. Or you can buy a Sidewinder and become instantly competitive unless the SORC changes the rules." I am not slamming anything here, but just trying to get people to look at the big picture. The A classes are not where we are going to send new people. Now if the A motor was also the J category motor (whatever the brand we decide) then we would REALLY have something to sell. Right now it is just a mess.

B class sales pitch:

"Hey new name racer, you don't want to race B. The new motor is slow and high cost and the you cant get a good Hot Rod. Additionally, they only race in the Midwest and East and they are tough to keep running well." Actually, this one is easy to explain because we just keep them out of it.

These classes/products as they sit are NOT positioned for growth. What can we do, if anything, to change that?

I think the answer is simple:

1. The J, AX and A motor all need to be the same brand. I don't care which brand, but the same brand.

2. The 20C.I. Sidewinder needs a restricor package that can be quickly applied at a race so that it can compete in B class. I could sell the value of the motor vrs. the other options and classes.

Don't worry I am not on a bandwagon here to submit proposals. Just putting out some food for thought. If we could achieve these points it would be much easier to "sell" these classes and would help achieve real new name growth.

Just some more thoughts.
12M

[csh2z]

My comments were not directed at you Dean. For the most part, I agree with your position. We in Region 4 are very interested in putting together a driving school as well. We are adding race sites and need to support them. Would you be interested in putting together a "Driver School Instruction Manual"? We may as well learn from a successful program. With less man power available we need to avoid the stumbling blocks as much as possible. I'm sure our Region could help subsidize such a project.

[csh12M]

Racer School

Yes, positively I would love to help. I am better talker than writer. Give me a buzz and I can walk you through exactly what we do. We have the process pretty refined. If my schedule allowed I would have no problem coming down and doing the first one with you!

Thanks,
Dean

[PittmanRacing]

Something else to consider looking forward

Everyone has shared many excellent perspectives on the AH/AR issue. In particular, Dean made some very constructive points. As a long time racer who now has kids new to the sport, there are other things we need to consider in decisions going forward. I agree completely that the J/AX/A idea is a real deal maker in selling a class to new or existing racers.

Here are some other things to consider looking forward, assuming things remain as is:

1. In order to be competative in A one will logically need to buy a sidewinder.
2. Sidewinders are only at the beginning of the improvement (speed) cycle. That means that it is unlikely that current propellers or boats will be sufficient going forward.
3. Given the above, if new SW's are going, let's say, 58mph, then they will only be going even faster in the near future. That means we will need new props and boats to be competative, unlike those we are currently running. I don't think current 8' boats are safe going 60+ mph.

So, as decisions are made, consider realistic senarios beyond our current situation.

Paul

[Big Don]

Dean good 2nd post, I agree 100%. Stock & Mod are two different products.
3. I also want to congratulate Donny Allen on his new record in ASH. Everybody knows the OMC can't possibly beat a Sidewinder and yet the record broken was momentarily held by a Sidewinder. That must be one special OMC! I wonder where I could buy one?

John thanks for the congrats but make no mistake about it. Donny was not the fastest ASH there. The Sidewinder rig was faster and it should be to anyone watching…I’m guessing that he was maybe at least 1-2MPH faster. I’m not trying to take anything away from Aaron. The first heat when Aaron set the record he came from behind and passed Donny on the outside. Donny did everything he could to keep him behind him and it was a great race watching those two battle for 2 laps, but once he was past Donny he started to pull away. Donny was able to nail the starts on the inside and stay legal, he drove a great race and Aaron either jumped or got caught back and had to try and run Donny down. The last heat of the day he was only a few boat lengths behind Donny and may have passed him with another straight away...

[reed28n]

Competing

Looks like team Allen will have to buy a restricted 302 for 20SSH because that certainly appeared 1 to 2 MPH faster at Grass Lake and a Sidewinder for ASH.

Two currently manufactured motors that after 30 years have risen above the old power plants.

[reed28n]

Definite cosideration

Everyone has shared many excellent perspectives on the AH/AR issue. In particular, Dean made some very constructive points. As a long time racer who now has kids new to the sport, there are other things we need to consider in decisions going forward. I agree completely that the J/AX/A idea is a real deal maker in selling a class to new or existing racers.

Here are some other things to consider looking forward, assuming things remain as is:

1. In order to be competative in A one will logically need to buy a sidewinder.
2. Sidewinders are only at the beginning of the improvement (speed) cycle. That means that it is unlikely that current propellers or boats will be sufficient going forward.
3. Given the above, if new SW's are going, let's say, 58mph, then they will only be going even faster in the near future. That means we will need new props and boats to be competative, unlike those we are currently running. I don't think current 8' boats are safe going 60+ mph.

So, as decisions are made, consider realistic senarios beyond our current situation.

Paul

All good points....but we don't seem to be concerned about our young drivers running 58 mph at 325 lbs.

We should be looking at slowing down J, AXS and A it is discussed each year but the very same prop concerns you have posted here seem to prevent us from seriously considering the option of slowing down the Merc's.

I did not see one OMC in J or AX this year at Grass Lake. Is it odd that SW is such a threat when the Mercs obsoleted the OMC in the J and AX Classes in a few short years?

[Matt Dagostino]

Lol............

John thanks for the congrats but make no mistake about it. Donny was not the fastest ASH there. The Sidewinder rig was faster and it should be to anyone watching…I’m guessing that he was maybe at least 1-2MPH faster. I’m not trying to take anything away from Aaron. The first heat when Aaron set the record he came from behind and passed Donny on the outside. Donny did everything he could to keep him behind him and it was a great race watching those two battle for 2 laps, but once he was past Donny he started to pull away. Donny was able to nail the starts on the inside and stay legal, he drove a great race and Aaron either jumped or got caught back and had to try and run Donny down. The last heat of the day he was only a few boat lengths behind Donny and may have passed him with another straight away...

"I don't necessarialy agree with Big Don"...........not taking sides but i think it wierd that Donny sets the record but yet claims the Sidewinder is lots faster?? I think you are spending way to much time on the Left-Coast! Plus isn't the Donny Allen rig a put together outfit with a borrowed boat, motor and prop?? I think the McCay-Schwartz rig has been running now for a couple years and is dialed in. The Team Pater/Pavlick/Allen OMC sure ran strong for being a last minute deal! Let's all just try and be impartial!

Time to come home to Michigan my friend!

Just sayin

Sincerly
Gary Pond

[Big Don]

Looks like team Allen will have to buy a restricted 302 for 20SSH because that certainly appeared 1 to 2 MPH faster at Grass Lake and a Sidewinder for ASH.

Two currently manufactured motors that after 30 years have risen above the old power plants.

Scott what your point?

We did buy a 302 already and are talking about buying a second one. I'm not on here talking about the 20 class.

We don't own any A engines or boats and have no plans to own it. Wait, we still have 1 ASR boat left, amd it's for sale.

All I stated was the facts. The sidewinder is/was faster than the rig Donny drove. The fastest does not always win.