Grass Lake ASH Appeal to National Commissioner

[propnuts]

Non-speed advantage BS

I get really tired of people leaning on this rule every time a decision doesn't go their way. This was put into the rule book to cover situations not specifically addressed in the rule book. Both times I have seen this argument used (A stock cowling at Bakersfield) there were very specific rules already in place covering the equipment, therefore this rule has no bearing. The idea is that since we can't write a rule book to cover every possible scenario, there is a fallback rule to cover the stuff we didn't think of. If I show up with a pinwheel glued to the nose of my boat, since there are no rules covering pinwheels we can refer to the "non speed advantage" rule. If I show up with equipment that violates the rules we already have written, follow that rule. Simple.

Mackey…just giving you a hard time.

I’m a rules guy also, and I think they need to be enforced. I also think the SORC acted within our rules.

So if I understand you correctly…

We both agree the inspector made the right call.

We both agree the referee has the power to enforce the non speed advantage rule. We both agree that he didn’t.

Not sure on what the, “the DQ was justified” means? Does that mean the inspector was right in the DQ or that Matt should not be put back in?

Your right this whole thing is over the SORC having the power to run our category and having the final decision. Once again, our bylaws give us this power.

So what I’m not sure about, and would like you and anyone else that would like to answer my question, who thinks Matt should not be awarded the championship? Then go back and read my kill switch post and tell me if that were you in either of those situations, would you still feel the same way.

We really want to take earned wins on the race course away from drivers and award them to others that couldn’t win on the course for a non speed advantage item.

Remember not everyone learns at the same level, not everyone learns by reading, not everyone learns by doing…we as leaders are here to help, assist, coach, teach, educate our fellow races, and when something like this happens we should do all those things listed to help them. And don’t give me…. George and Matt should know better. Knowing George as a I do he would have fixed them in 5 minutes if he knew. And Matt…well he’s Matt and just knows how to drive .

[Brian10s]

The fault is not with the owner or driver. It is with the inspection system.

1st - I am not trying to pick on Bob (as there have been several posts that seem to put the blame on Inspection).
2nd - The system that is in question is not the Inspection process but the entire governing system. This is how it works. Drivers race, Officials do their thing and the governing body tries to make sense of it when things get shady. The process of protest and appeal are what takes a simple mistake/ oversight and corrects it. One of the issues in the system if to ask a group (in this case the elected SORC) to make a decision on the spot that can and usually does have unforseen ramifications. Each commission is put in terrible situations where they have to make a ruling with usually incomplete facts and then live with it.

As for the Inspection process, as soon as the drivers start bucking up with $200-300 per entry fees so that you can pay your officials what their time and expertise is truely worth - then you have the right to hold people accountable for every error. That and plan on getting to nationals a week early in order to have enough time for the paid inspectors to go through a true tech inspection.

I have never seen or heard of a driver or commission buying a single piece of inspection equipment (all that stuff needed was not delivered by Santa and there are many props worth in each inspectors tool kit) and drivers often complain when we have to do inspection duty for one set. Heck, I have seen at several Nationals, the Inspector still working well into the night under lights while all the drivers are at the dinners having a great time. The Inspectors are at the site hours before the start of that days racing - EVERY DAY - to open inspection, while the majority of drivers are still sleeping it off.

So how about instead of pointing a finger in blame, you extend a hand and say thank you. Of course, 10's & 20's are always good too.


Brian
The son of a longtime Inspector who has had to take dinner to inspection more times than he can count.

[Big Don]

I get really tired of people leaning on this rule every time a decision doesn't go their way. This was put into the rule book to cover situations not specifically addressed in the rule book. Both times I have seen this argument used (A stock cowling at Bakersfield) there were very specific rules already in place covering the equipment, therefore this rule has no bearing. The idea is that since we can't write a rule book to cover every possible scenario, there is a fallback rule to cover the stuff we didn't think of. If I show up with a pinwheel glued to the nose of my boat, since there are no rules covering pinwheels we can refer to the "non speed advantage" rule. If I show up with equipment that violates the rules we already have written, follow that rule. Simple.

So you are saying DQ him and he's out...

And that is not the only reason why the rule was put in. It was put in for situations like this.

[Big Don]

The reason this rule came about was because the BOD told us to make a rule regarding sponson tips or they would force the Mod/Pro on us. The purpose was due to a UIM safety data report that APBA adopted as their own to satisfy Insurance demands and uniformity. The data was developed based on boats that were much bigger and faster than most of the boats that compete in our category. The dimensions were calculated for boats going 90+ mph which would require a larger radius to reduce the damaging impact that could occur during a collision.
There were two significant differences between the Mod/Pro rule and the rule we wrote. 1. Because many of the boats for the smaller A & B classes ( taking into consideration crossover boats from J & AX mostly with very short pickles.) would have required some pretty extreme modifications to meet the rule. The rule, remember was designed for boats going at much higher speeds. 2. The Mod/Pro rule exempted boats built essentially before the rule was adopted! Does that make any sense for a safety rule? To exempt 90% of the boats on the water? How many boats, competing today are still exempt from this rule? Our rule ( appropriately,a compromise on the radius ) would make ALL boats "safer". Immediately!
As far as the DQ. Traditionally anything but a technical violation usually receives a warning not to come back to inspection without the offense being repaired or you will be DQ'd.

John is correct. What I find real interesting is the BOD forced us to make a rule but they did nothing with the J category that they control.

[Mark 32]

Maybe because runabout drivers are so skillful that they don't run into one another??

I mindlessly looked for the "like" button on this one.

[ram95]

Live by the sword.. die by it

People... we have had this particular rule on the books for two years.

I've heard about enough of all these 'escapement clauses' , ie other rules which empower other poobah committees/individuals to 'over-rule' this decision. What a pile of verbal crap!! Undermining and making a mockery of 'The Inspector'..... can't we appreciate that fact??? Maybe YOU (whoever YOU may apply to) should be the chief inspector at a nationals event.

The pickle rule for stocks as written and illustrated is clear. If any of you don't agree with it you should have gathered your pals and protested it BACK when it went in. Or maybe you didn't read the rule book.

And, if you happened to be among the folks who did not agree with the need for a particular rule in the first place, and voiced your opinion, but were disregarded..... join the club!

Hats off to the "J" committee on this one. At least they didn't succumb to it. And, you know what, most of the J boats have rounded their pickles anyway... they didn't need a freaking rule nor did we (stocks).

An advisory or recommendation would have been adequate. Same, same for the DOT helmet rule. Total bureaucratic fertilizer.... did this help membership?

Alex

[daveracerdsh]

Inspection

I have been involved in inspection with Seattle Outboard for a number of years now...and I HATE throwing people out when they come to the scales and they are 1 lb light or to high etc etc etc. I for one could not be chief inspector at a national event....simply not in my makeup to be the bad guy at times. It is sorta interesting that we use current racers as inspectors at big events.....Karting and other motor sports use inspectors that have no so called "dog in the fight"......IE they don't race karts or have family members that do. I don't know if karting inspectors are paid or if they are volunteers....no idea. This is sure not a slam against any chief inspector at nationals...far from it...I just find it interesting that we do it different then other racing organizations.

[bill van steenwyk]

Dave:

You might find that both the sanctioning bodies and racing members in Karting (and other types racing also that have permanent tracks, either owned by the organization or local clubs/members) have alternate profit structures that allow them more operating capital than the local sponsoring club (JC's, Shriner's, Mens Clubs's, etc.) that only have ONE or two Boat Racing events a year, and have the added trouble to find a suitable piece of water. They (permanently dedicated venues) are much more able to afford this type of officiating.

If you don't do it that way, it is all on member dues and entry fees, and most feel, if you read HR, that they are too high now.

It has been common knowledge the last 20 years or so that it costs so much to put a boat race on (sanction, insurance, ambulance, patrol boats and associated folks manning them) that there is very little money, if any, left over to fund the type officials you speak about. USTS which is probably a blueprint for successful Boat Racing here in the US, (if there is such a thing presently) also depends almost 100% on volunteers to keep costs reasonable.

Not suggesting your ideas is a bad one at all, in fact the opposite, but as the old saying goes, IF YOU WANT TO PLAY, YOU HAS TO PAY!!

This is where someplace like a sanctioning body owned facility/facilities could be beneficial to boat racing, and probably the only way boat racing would ever reach the masses like other types of motor sports. If you want to see the blueprint for success, look only to Japan and the 20+ parimutuel racing sites with the Yamatos. BUT, be careful what you wish for, as with that type racing you end up with rules and regulations that some might find onerous, and probably no appeal to the rule book and chances of having something overturned like APBA and the various categories experiences occasionally.

Some say that type organization is what Boat Racing needs for it to be successful and appeal to the masses. If it ever took place, it (Boat Racing) would be VERY different than it is now, UNLESS YOU FIND A TITLE SPONSOR, but that's what APBA is supposed to be doing according to many.

[daveracerdsh]

Inspection

Very good points Bill.....I am super curious as to how inspection is handled at the Japan paramutual events.....they run the 302 motors that now dominate outboard racing. Anybody know?

[daveracerdsh]

Racing

Sorta getting off subject i suppose...but how cool would it be to have 10-15 dedicated lakes all over the country (like water ski venues) used for boat racing.....spectators pay an entry fee, watch 12 heats of racing etc....bet some money if possible...(they do it in horse racing) and watch some great racing action. Course could be a certified 3/4 mile at each event.....do it all over the country.... Think about how bad outboard motor makers would be falling all over themselves to put up some prize money. It has been done in other sports. why not with outboard racing here in the United states and Canada? Just some random thoughts. (anything to get away from the sponson tip thing.) Dave

[bill van steenwyk]

Dave:

When my wife and I visited Japan in the mid 70's, the boats and motors were all owned by the Japan Motor Boat Association. Drivers were assigned by some process, and the boat and motors were kept in a separate area guarded by armed guards with submachine guns to protect the integrity of the process, as betting is not only allowed, but encouraged. When the race was about to start, the drivers went to their boats, which were kept in a secure area away from the spectators. If I remember correctly, the only thing the driver could change (at that time) was the spark plugs. As the integrity of the motors was protected by keeping them away from the public and the drivers until the races, and they were not worked on except by authorized factory or race course mechanics (who are employed by the sanctioning body) inspection or screwing around with the motors was not a concern.

This process probably would not work here in its entirety, BUT until there is a profit motive for a promoter, and a permanent place to hold more than one or two races a season, or someone found a sugar daddy to finance what would be required to do it differently, looks like we are stuck with the way we do it.

Champ Boat had a very workable model a few years back till the bottom fell our of the economy. But, they had a fast paced program, 20 or so of the best drivers in the country, and DID NOT have 35+ classes to run off a day.

[bill van steenwyk]

[QUOTE=daveracerdsh;209680]Sorta getting off subject i suppose...but how cool would it be to have 10-15 dedicated lakes all over the country (like water ski venues) used for boat racing.....spectators pay an entry fee, watch 12 heats of racing etc....bet some money if possible...(they do it in horse racing) and watch some great racing action. Course could be a certified 3/4 mile at each event.....do it all over the country.... Think about how bad outboard motor makers would be falling all over themselves to put up some prize money. It has been done in other sports. why not with outboard racing here in the United states and Canada? Just some random thoughts. (anything to get away from the sponson tip thing.) Dave



Dave:

I think anyone (and it is NOT by any means an original idea, it has been around for years) would agree the dedicated sites around the county is an excellent idea, and would probably attract sponsors and additional money.



NEXT QUESTION??
How many Lucas Oil's are there. It would have to be a private for profit facility. If you don't believe me, just look how many hoops the average club has to jump thru to get a site for one weekend a year, much less 8-10 events that would be able to guarantee an investor a return on his money. And it would not be an overnite return either. Would take someone who was really a Boat Racing enthusiast, and the venue would also need to be able to be used for other water sports when not racing, like water skiing, etc., so as to be able to pay for itself in any reasonable length of time.

Believe me there have been many minds, keener than yours and mine, and with more money also, that have tried to make that idea work. NO JOY YET!

[bill van steenwyk]

Dave:

One other thing I forgot to mention when putting thoughts to paper regards Boat Racing dedicated facilities.

To my knowledge there have been a few sites around the country that were built or used with primarily Boat Racing in mind. Firebird Lake built in the late 60's/early 70's comes to mind, as does the Hydrobowl or Hydroglobe (can't remember what it is called now)in Dayton, Ohio, and the closest to the middle of the country was George Winter Park in Fenton, Mo, and then they moved to Creve Couer Park in St. Louis. Champ Boat in various forms ran in Fenton and St. Louis for many, many years. First race I remember in George Winter was in the early 70's. George Winter has been used solely for pleasure boating/fishing the last few years, but floods the last several years, and a lack of funds to repair that damage has the park in not as good shape as previous years. No powered boats are allowed on Creve Couer now I don't think unless the large fee is paid, and there is no testing of race boats allowed.

George Winter and Creve Couer were not solely dedicated to Boat Racing, as they were and are today, owned by St. Louis County Parks Dept, but the one thing that any type boat racing (except for Champ Boat and Drag Boats) found was that after Boat Racing was found to be popular and money could be made, the user fees escalated to the point that is became unprofitable for racing to be held there anymore. I am sure the economy had some impact, but the large rise in fees had a big impact. It went from a no fee, test when you want, AOF/APBA Mod racing use, to approz 5000.00 to use the lake for the weekend. Add sanction fees, insurance. and all the rest and you have a big nut to crack. Hard to do on entry fees and a concession stand. We did have Title Series races there in the 80's but the difficulty in raising money to pay the cost of the lake did that in.

The last I heard about Firebird was that racing flourished there for a time, but you hardly see anything about it any more. I have no idea why. It is on an Indian reservation and things work differently there. They had a auto road race track and also the lake, which was dumbell shaped, had an island in the middle that ran almost the whole length and had an overhead trolley arrangement that could pull water skiers around the island.

I also understand that Dayton raised their rates, but I have no idea the cost now. Chairman Eddie could tell you I'm sure. It seems something always happens to publicly owned/funded places to run, so that is just one more reason I agree with you that Boat Racing needs a "SUGAR DADDY" who loves the sport, has 20 or 30 million, and does not mind only having 3 or 4 million when he is done.

[daveracerdsh]

Dedicated boat racing sites

2 more sites that come to mind are Mission Bay San Diego....and Lake Ming Bakersfield California. I am sure not an authority on the subject...but was not Lake Ming built for boat racing in the 50s? Named after a Dr Ming? How is it now that they make it so hard for outboard clubs to put on a race? I am talking about Kern County. And was not Mission Bay dredged out in the 60s for the express purpose of hold regattas? Huh? And now we have to freaking BEG people to allow us to race on lakes etc. Makes me want to throw my APBA card into the lake,. random thoughts. Dave

[bill boyes]

Lake Ming was a project by Manual Carnakis. Dr Ming was very against it until Manual told Dr Ming that if he voted for the project they would name the lake after him, hence Lake Ming.
Another is Long Beach Marine Stadium was built in the early 1930's for the summer Olympics for a rowing stadium. There is a deed of gift in it somehow.