Grass Lake ASH Appeal to National Commissioner

[ram95]

Rule on this!

First and foremost... has everyone posting here looked at the illustration shown in Safety Rule 3, para 21? Actually looked at it?? It's been in the book for 2 years. When did YOU look at it? Yesterday??

Secondly, this is a SAFETY rule. Is a slap on the wrist the way we want to enforce SAFETY rules?

Lastly, this rule, like a number of other rules, Safety or otherwise were created as a solution to a problem that did not exist. A perceptual problem perhaps, but not one supported by properly reviewed historical data. As such, I find it extremely annoying that as a governing body (SORC, Safety Committee, BOD, etc) just march right on and slam this crap into the RULES anyway. Then, when members finally do read their rulebook or look at the illustrations... it's "just too bad". Of course, the insurance companies love to see restrictions imposed under the auspices of 'safety'... and it's food for future litigators (emphasis on gators). Write me in for BOD if you haven't shidcanned yer ballot.

Alex Poliakoff
The (annoyed) Mad Russian
Commission of Stocks, Region ONE

[thepiranhabros]

But I'm too tall to have a Napoleon complex...

The rule does NOT say what the penalty is for a violation of the pickle fork rule (unlike the rule against leaving the pits after the white flag). All of you guys that want to DQ someone who just won the nationals for a rule that does NOT say what the penalty is instead of warning him, have a serious Napoleon complex and should seek therapy. Anyone who wants to win a race this way should re-read the definition of "competition" (after the one for "edification").

Ed:

You are correct in saying, "The rule does NOT say what the penalty is for a violation of the pickle fork rule (unlike the rule against leaving the pits after the white flag)." Not directly. Therefore, I am going to disagree with you based on three items in two rule books: 1) Rules 3 and 9 in the 2012 Rules for Modified Outboard, Stock Outboard and Professional Racing Outboard; and 2) Rule 18 in the 2012 APBA General Safety Rules.

Rule 3.21 gives detailed written instruction concerning the pickle fork dimensions, and even gives a diagram depicting the minimum requirements to meet the rule. (http://www.apba-racing.com/sites/all...2SOMOPRO_3.pdf)

Rule 9 states, "1. Any driver who races a motor or hull that does not meet with specifications as quoted in these rules, will be disqualified and warned. Note: Violations of a non-speed-advantage nature are covered in General Racing Rule 18." (http://www.apba-racing.com/sites/all...2SOMOPRO_3.pdf)

Rule 18.4 states, "Should any boat or owner commit a breach of the rules, which is of a minor or technical nature, and in the judgment of the Referee has had no direct effect on the relative position of the boats at the finish, the Referee shall have the power to decide whether or not such boat shall be disqualified." (http://www.apba-racing.com/sites/all...2GRR-GSR_4.pdf)

The pickle fork rule (3.21) has been on the books since either the 2009 or the 2010 season. The point I'm getting at is this rule is no surprise to anybody, and by the 2012 season, the boat should have been at least warned, and at best, modified to fit the rule.

The other two rules (9 and 18.4) serve to reinforce Rule 3.21. While it is unfortunate there is no direct penalty assigned to Rule 3.21 (as there is with the rule associated with leaving the pits under the white flag), when the paths in the rule books are followed, it leads me to believe that the Inspector's ruling about illegal equipment was correct and should have stood.

Yes, it is unfortunate that an experienced boat builder and driver did not realize the boat was in violation of the rule. Yes, it is unfortunate this boat's infraction had not been caught until the Nationals. Yes, it is a lousy way to lose a Nationals. But isn't this kind of a lousy way to win a Nationals too?

To borrow a line from Dennis Miller, "Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."

Respectfully,

[ram95]

Ditto!!

Ed:
The pickle fork rule (3.21) has been on the books since either the 2009 or the 2010 season. The point I'm getting at is this rule is no surprise to anybody, and by the 2012 season, the boat should have been at least warned, and at best, modified to fit the rule.
Respectfully,

Yup, exactly. (Re: my post "Rule on this" previously). And if we're going to take the rules seriously, this action should have taken place well before the Nationals.

Alex

[blueskyracer]

since there is no speed advantage and it is for safety why dont they take out all the interpetation grey areas and fine lines and make sponson tips look like these..It would be very easy to incorporate into any of the boats out there and they look better..

Plus if you look at the pictures of Billy Allens OSY boat that went to Europe they have sponson tips like these also..

[thepiranhabros]

Already done

since there is no speed advantage and it is for safety why dont they take out all the interpetation grey areas and fine lines and make sponson tips look like these..It would be very easy to incorporate into any of the boats out there and they look better..

Plus if you look at the pictures of Billy Allens OSY boat that went to Europe they have sponson tips like these also..

Mike:

Here's a screen capture of the illustration from the APBA rule book.

[blueskyracer]

Why have stock be the exception..Still looks like a spear..Make everyone use the Mod and UIM tips for all the classes..Looks like the Stock tip was worked out so that a personal agenda was met..Just my two cents

[thepiranhabros]

Differences

Why have stock be the exception..Still looks like a spear..Make everyone use the Mod and UIM tips for all the classes..Looks like the Stock tip was worked out so that a personal agenda was met..Just my two cents

Mike:

To my understanding, the reason the Stock pickle fork radius is smaller is because many Stock hydros did not have enough pickle fork to "give up" to meet the Mod and PRO rule of 1-inch radius. In other words, many boats would lose several inches of deck in order to grind far enough back to make a 1-inch radius on the pickle fork tip.

[ram95]

What drove the rule on sponson tips

Correct me if I am wrong but....

The whole issue of sponson tips came to the front when it was realized that to attract UIM competitors from overseas to come to the USA to race we needed compatible rules for those classes. And, of course for us to race in a UIM race our boats had to conform to UIM rules. Most 'Stock' racers could have cared less about UIM rules. But, the more worldly(?) view prevailed, recognizing this UIM factor... and our rulebook got altered to accomodate the UIM specs.

During this shuck-n-jive session it almost looked like the rule would be applied to ALL our APBA classes, BUT due to the simple fact that it would be a major pain-in-the-groin and cause a whole pile of work for most Stockers to carve off the sponson tips an alternate idea was born.... errr make that two ideas, ie(1) Mod/PRO and (2)Stocks, in addition to UIM. And, as correctly noted, Stocks was smaller to enable Stockers to just sabre-saw the tips to a 1/2" radius as illustrated.

And, having been effectively 'roundly pickled' and soused, we all sailed merrily off into the abyss. Merrily merrily it seems until Grass Lake 2012... boink!!

Alex Poliakoff (write me in!!)

[Tom Cronk]

Drawings

As you can see (per drawings) all SO,MOD,PRO rules are round
on each side of the foremost point,viewed from the top or bottom.
I wrote the UIM rule for PRO.
Tom Cronk
Region 5 PRO Comm

[Big Don]

So you people that want him thrown out.

Let me ask you this…your boat goes through a safety inspection…you pass and get your sticker…. your kill switch shorts out while racing the second heat…you just won the nationals…inspection checks the kill switch and it does not work…they throw you out…driver appeals…. Commission over turns and puts him back in… You really think he shouldn’t win the nationals? Really?

I agree they didn’t meet the rule but it’s a non speed advantage. Give the warning, make sure they are fixed before you race again. If they are not fixed after that. DQ away….

If this is really how a lot of you people think, it really makes me wonder…

[KURPS]

Common Sense??

So you people that want him thrown out.

Let me ask you this…your boat goes through a safety inspection…you pass and get your sticker…. your kill switch shorts out while racing the second heat…you just won the nationals…inspection checks the kill switch and it does not work…they throw you out…driver appeals…. Commission over turns and puts him back in… You really think he shouldn’t win the nationals? Really?

I agree they didn’t meet the rule but it’s a non speed advantage. Give the warning, make sure they are fixed before you race again. If they are not fixed after that. DQ away….

If this is really how a lot of you people think, it really makes me wonder…

Sounds like common sense to me, but most people don't have it.

[thepiranhabros]

Just for argument sake...

So you people that want him thrown out.

Let me ask you this…your boat goes through a safety inspection…you pass and get your sticker…. your kill switch shorts out while racing the second heat…you just won the nationals…inspection checks the kill switch and it does not work…they throw you out…driver appeals…. Commission over turns and puts him back in… You really think he shouldn’t win the nationals? Really?

I agree they didn’t meet the rule but it’s a non speed advantage. Give the warning, make sure they are fixed before you race again. If they are not fixed after that. DQ away….

If this is really how a lot of you people think, it really makes me wonder…

Let's say the top cowling blows off the drivers' OMC A engine one foot before the Start/Finish line of Lap Three of Heat Two. The driver has won the Nationals. But did he?

[JordanE]

Let's say the top cowling blows off the drivers' OMC A engine one foot before the Start/Finish line of Lap Three of Heat Two. The driver has won the Nationals. But did he?

I think there is a point in the rule (from reading it yesterday) that allows the cowl to be knocked off during a heat if you have been hit or crash. If your cowl blows off than you're technically a DQ.

[Big Don]

Let's say the top cowling blows off the drivers' OMC A engine one foot before the Start/Finish line of Lap Three of Heat Two. The driver has won the Nationals. But did he?

Mackey, point made…you look to DQ and I look to keep people in. Funny I thought you were a glass is half full kind of guy.

[bill boyes]

Mike:

To my understanding, the reason the Stock pickle fork radius is smaller is because many Stock hydros did not have enough pickle fork to "give up" to meet the Mod and PRO rule of 1-inch radius. In other words, many boats would lose several inches of deck in order to grind far enough back to make a 1-inch radius on the pickle fork tip.

OH, What about K pro, 200mh etc.
Pro and Mod have a grandfather rule whereas Stock does not.
problem is that you can run your ASH within the Stock rule for years and then enter the boat in 200mh and now be DQ'd for the pickle tip rule.