New topic week of 11/21/04

[brian]

What do you want from us?

Dan,

What do expect we are boat racers.... we loan our stuff to new drivers... we borrow stuff we can not aford to fix if we break it... (44xs engine, thank you Kip) we drive 3-10 hours to break parts we spent 40 hours assembling...

You want use to stay on topic? Try free pizza Dan; everyone loves pizza.
Oh wait, sorry Dan sign says do not feed the animals. It is a liability thing you know.

B

[HRTV]

Guess I should know better

[HYDRO21Z]

No problem with Altralite

Dan,
I don't read anyone complaining about Matt's boats.
I have no problem racing against his boats, they are very good handleing
crafts and the fact they are Carbon Fibre only concerns me at the moment
until I have more information on wether or not there is much difference in
a sharp wood sponson or a sharp carbon sponson. We have been using
carbon fibre to laminate John's coamings and I have alot more confidence
in my protection and the boat's ability to stay together than I once did.
The rounded vs pointed pickles issue does appeal to me. The rounded
sponsons make alot of sense, but I like the pointed look better.
I agree that safety is of greater concern than looks, but I think it would
take a rule change or a great amount of cooperation among builders to
change how the boats are made. Just my opinion.
Dennis 21Z

[Brian10s]

Also no problem . . .

I agree with Dennis.

While we didn't stay on course of the original question, this is nor should it be a discussion ro knock down on different materials or manufactures. I have run against Steve French all year in his fiberboat and it has been one of the most stable, in control boats I have seen. This is not nor should be a wood vs fiber issue.
As Brian stated, any material at 85 mph is dangerous and isn't something you want to run into. However, I can only beleive that a blunt object does less damage than a pointed one, and that is regardless of material. Otherwise, early man would have throw round rocks instead of spears.

But I still beleive (and will continue to beleive) that the only reason we have pointy pickles (wither it be wood or fiber) is that they look cool. That being said, I beleive we looked cooler when we raced in t-shirts, shorts, gortex jackets and openface helmets with shades on. I also think kill switches are uncool as well.

That being said, I appoligize for the misdirection this thread has taken.

Brian 10s

[csh12M]

Uncool?

So Brian,

Are my boats uncool......

Later,
12M

[Brian10s]

Dean,
Yes, totally uncool but very hard to catch

Here's too the uncoolest boat in the Hall of Champions!!!!!

Congrats!!!!

[epugh66]

I think that the original question was " are we or APBA liable if we knowingly and willfully continue to use equipment that could be made safer". Tough question for us with no legal back ground.

Approached from a different way. Do I want to get hurt? Do I want to hurt someone else? What can I do to give myself and others a margine of safety? The first two should be easy to answer, NO! The third takes commitment from each participant. My boat has two wooden rounded tips, it would not make a difference if it were a composite boat. From another boat, I have a broken off wood sponson tip, I think it could support the entire weight of my VW bus. To complete the package, my coaming sides need to be kevlar reinforced to resist penitration from another boat. Finally, since 1990 when i've been in a boat, i've been IN the boat. Not perched on top like I were kneeling on a skate board.

[brian]

Dan and all:

It is against my nature as a former debate coach to do this but here goes:

Here are the major inherent barriers to APBA liability issues on the UIM issues:

Liability can be waved but negligence can not be waved thus someone can sue if APBA is negligent. Example: APBA race not providing safety boats or manning safety boats with two J drivers who can not help or have proper knowledge of equipment.

APBA sanctions UIM events and must meet there sanction standards to qualify as an UIM event. UIM must approve event too as I understand. APBA is protected under several layers of insurance and a corporate structure.

United States is a sovereign Nation and World laws and corporations must sue under US law. There is no international law… United Nations and no special treaties would apply to waived participation rights in the US. Example a French racer could not sue or would not win in court if he got hurt at an APBA UIM race from a no fault accident. He might be able to sue in his country I do not know anything about French law. Try to collect???

If the pickles are legal here and not there… that is what it means. Example radar detectors or hands free cell phone laws from state to state. To be held liable for know dangers is a possibility, but unknown dangers are very hard to sue for $ or even responsibility. Example: Cancer from power lines or deaths from plastic bags.

The short answer on liability is the US courts can accept any case if a portion of reasonable blame can be delivered in a negligent claim. But because of the inherent dangers of boat racing liability will be small and quote “reasonable risk”. If the risk becomes unreasonable the insurance companies will let us know.

Try to insure an active sky diver or deep sea divers or private outer-space travels.

My 2 cents is just that…. But than again, I don’t give rides home to my students anymore because of liability and risks, even if they live next door!! Male or female is not even a factor. Sad to say I won 3 national championships and never hugged one of my students. It is sad that we have to live this way.

B

[csh12M]

Sad but true.....

Very interesting commentary 33M, sad but true.

Thanks Brian W.! I wonder who the last guy to get in the HOC in a hydro without pickleforks was?

Later,
12

[dholt]

How's this for a possible answer...

Steve Warnock getting in HOC with the Hawk hydro. I believe he'd be the last round nose hydro driver.

This topic seems really odd to debate.

No reason at all that all new hydros built after 'X' date should be required to have collapsable pickles. It's common sense. Of course they are dangerous. No one could dispute that.


D.

[Joe J]

I have always been very aware of safety issues, and now with a daughter racing J, this has been amplified.

That being said, at some point in time, we as racers have to be aware of the risks involved in our sport. If a driver deems these risks accessive, they may make a decision based on these feelings.

Maybe the commissions should look at simplier ways to increase safety, such as flack protection in ALL kneeler categories, not just PRO.

Also, wouldn't this apply to runabouts as well?

Joe

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

Sometime's going back in time is not a bad thing.....

-Does anyone remember in the early 80's when Doug Turner dumped his 20ssh at Grand Rapids Ohio? Got a pickle directly into his heart area of his life jacket. Thank God his bulky old Lifeline took the impact and after a trip in the Lifeflight helicopter he was released later with bruised heart muscles. The jacket looked like someone shot it with a 12 gauge.
-I agree with Dana that we should look down the road and pick a date that pickles become rounded. Warby and Dean have proven it wont hurt a darn thing.
-Why all the talk about hydros and not runabouts. Shovel nosed runabouts wouldnt hurt a thing either. I am currently designing a new JSR for next year with a flat nose and that has been planned long before this thread started.
-Remember the 1980's Wakefield nats T-shirt with the silouette of Jack 'Glasses' Neely on the front flying high? Maybe this will get Jack to come back!

[MGallagher]

Hydro yes, runabouts, not so much...

Jeff, I understand the concern for the runabouts. However, I beleive it to be for one, more of a design hindrance to the design of a runabout than the rounded pickle forks would be to a hydro. Now don't take that completely to heart, I know that are some good arguements against that. Also, I beleive that the current design of the runabouts have more give than you think. Let me explain what I mean by that. If you were to get in a collision that has been discussed in the previous posts, a runabout could have had a better chance of manouvering out of that particular type of accident than the hydro.
With the hydro you are working with two points and craft that will not divert its path as easy as a runabout(Jeff, I'm sure you can attest to that given that you have raced both). Hydros deserve the attention right now, runabouts, not so much.

Also, how are you going to get a good V bottom boat if you start the front of it with a U(hahaha).

Just a thoght,
Matt Gallagher
58J

[MGallagher]

Hello?..... Bueller?....

[Jeff Brewster 59s]

Matt, do you ever sleep? Posting a 4 am?

Yes, Matt I agree that runabouts are not as bad. A runabout is just the next thing I plan to build. Might as well make it as safe as possible. My nine yr old is afraid the boat will look 'stupid' and says, 'Dad, cant you just make a normal J runabout?'. He just doesnt get it yet, that wouldn't be me!