New topic week of 11/21/04

[HRTV]

This is a tough one guys so please post responsible and intelligent opinions only.



Dan, As a guest to your site, I would like you to look at a new topic.
Here in England all clubs have had to change into Limited Companies, with an outbreak of suing claims, so as directors, officers, don’t lose all.
Looking at the new Carbon hulls being made by Artlralite with Harpoons as pickleforks.
If a driver was killed or maimed, Would APBA be covered in a case of litigation of negligent??.
Also as Bob Wartinger is both Commissioner of Safety to UIM - APBA. Pickleforks must be deformable under World rules - not APBA. Would this mean they are in negligent not enforcing a world safety rule.

OSY 192.

[HYDRO21Z]

I have some concerns

John Runne and I have been working with Carbon Fibre lately and have learned
alot. We have been very impressed with the what we have learned
about the Strength of Carbon Laminates.
With that said I am not sure that our wood sponson points are any less
dangerous. Case in point-- At Lockhaven this year Brian Williams and I
came together in turn 1 and my right sponson went through his coaming
and unless I do not have all the facts it cut through his kevlars and cut his
right leg. ( not sure if the pickle actually cut his suit or not, Brian could
fill in the gaps here) Once my sponson hit the transom it finally broke off of
the boat.
Now knowing the strength of Carbon fibre vs Wood I am unsure how that
incident would be different.
I would like more information on the deformable tips. The idea appeals to
me in principle, but without all the facts it is hard to make an informed
judgement. Can anyone direct us to a site or references regarding the
deformable sponsons?
As far as the insurance issue American Specialty is the place to start.
Dennis 21Z

[csh12M]

I agree with you Dennis,

Calling out Carbon Fiber boats and Matt in particular was inappropriate. I have seen just as many people build wood boats with pointy pickles. I applaud the builders that at least blunt the end of the pickles. I know Hemp does that..... I build wood boats but have also done some work with Carbon fiber, and without doing testing we are just guessing. That said, my guess is plywood reenforced with stringers that tie into several points of the boat and form a solid point are stronger than three or four layers of hollow carbon fiber.

The real questions is not carbon or wood, but do we need collapsable pickles. As with anything else it is risk vrs. reward. I am sure it is probably some degree safer, but will it drive up expense ect. So do you feel enough people are getting hurt by the pickles to implement a safety change. Personally I do not think so....but that is just my feel.

Luckily I build boats without pickles

Later,
12

[DougMc]

**** Democrats (or Liberals on the other side of the pond) with their liberal laws and Trial Lawyers suing too much!

Oooh, I spilled hot coffee on myself and got burned!
Oooh, I smoked too many cigaretts and got sick!
Oooh, I ate too much McDonalds and got fat!

[Howie Nichols]

You can check out the OPC rules for layup recommendations on deformable/crushable pickle tips. Maybe the engineer gurus can put together some #'s on glass vs wood strengths.

[ryan_4z]

I also agree,

At 65 mph it doesn't matter if that pickle is made of wood or carbon, its gonna hurt when it hits you, and its gonna do some damage. Now as far as Dennis's accident, if that had been a carbon boat I dont think the whole sponson would have come off. I dont know if that would have been a good thing of a bad thing in the long run. It would have been one less repair we'd have to do. I also agree with Dean that I haven't seen enough people get hurt to need a rule change, knock on wood(or carbon, or whatever your preference is). I also don't think it really matters if you blunt the pickles or not.

On another note, I would like to nominate DougMc's above post for best post ever.

[Composite Specialties]

New Option for Boat builders

This is what I had in mind about 10 years ago on this subject. In order for the pickle to collapse, you have to design the pickle tips with the weight of the boat, motor and driver in mind. The tunnel hull pickle tips are made of .0625" to .125" thickness fiberglass, which is sometimes enough thickness to keep the tip mounted on the boat during race conditions as well as being able to break away under impact. If you tried to use that same format on a light weight hydro, I do not think that the weight of the boat, motor and driver would be enough to have the tunnel hull tips break away, therefore I think you need to just round the pickle tips during construction and use a lightweight bulkhead on the tips. Even Balsa, foamcore or spruce for the tip will work, as long as there is not a point to punchture another object. See the attached pic for the old format and the suggested new format.

[Brian10s]

Just some thoughts . . .
As for the accident that Dennis and I had, he is correct in that his wood pickle went through the cockpit side, burst the stitching on my kevlar pants and ripped the nylon insert and I received a compression tear in my leg.
That all being said and having just looked at my boat for the first time since Labor Day just last week, the question, to me, is not the added strength of composite materials vs wood but the design traits of our hydros and to some extent runabouts. Do we need collapsable pickles or just make our pickles blunt or at least rounded? Why do we continue to have 2 spears on the front of our boats that come to a sharp end? I will give Dean all the credit in the world, he has won without points on his boat!! So, anyone saying a hydro can't win without pointy pickles, would that be the exception?

To counter Dean's and Ryan's point, isn't one injury enough of a reason to change how we do things or at least look into it? (of course I am bias on that point and I truely hope no one else has to become as bias as me)

In a thread that was very similiar to this one (or at least it started out like it) Sam Hemp did explain why pickles have become the way they are and some of the Pro's an Con's to deformable/collapsable tips. Maybe he will do the same here as well, as it did have merit. As for the other thread, all it accomplished was that pointy pickles look cool.

Brian 10s

[Dave M]

Rounded

I would say I am not in favor of break away pickle tips. Retrofitting all my boats is not something I want to tackle right now. Giles has been rounding his pickle tips for many years now, Trolian as well, and a lot of others. B&H boats even have a somewhat round tip. I am guilty of the pointed tips because they look cool.

This is boat "racing" you take inherit risks simply by the nature of the sport. No matter how many regulations you slap on the desgins for saftey it all comes down to luck.

I will say Marc Johnson posted a pic that seems simple enough for new boats moving forward. But I would not vote for anything on retro fitting anything I currently race.

[brian]

Can you be hit safely with this?

Here is my FEH rig (No comments on the paint job, or the numbers)...

Note the very rounded pickels with foam cores covered with fiber and epoxy. Me and the boat weigh... well a lot (again no comment please). At 85mph is there a safe place to be hit by this or any boat?

Most crashes happen in the turns at slower speeds and we have all seen hard crashes... Sidor and ??? at Franklin (someone post Sidor's boat). We race in somewhat predictable conditions and softer ones (water not concrete, wood not steel), with know dangers and that is what makes our sport safer than say.... all other motor sports!!! Even go-carts. Look at the stats on broken legs in jet-ski racing! Deaths in football camps! Baseball pitchers!

Ps. Go Piston Fans!!! Pacers won the game right?

[Abbott Racing]

Being the owner of an Arltralite, I think that it is incorrect to single out this design for pointy pickle forks. I can think of a number of hulls out there, (like O'Connors) that have points sharper than the Arltralite.

I Don't beleive the material has so much of an impact as much as the shape. Case in point a knife blade made of steel or a knife blade made from 1/4" lexan will both puncture the human body. Knives are dangerous no matter the material, racing hydroplanes can be dangerous no matter the material...............

[forshey99]

Accept the risk?

My two cents to a few of the posts.
Note: The original post was about liability concerns, and the replies are headed in a whole different direction. That said I'll keep the ball rolling.

Is there a "safe" way to get hit by a boat? Not in my opinion.
Can boats be made safer? Of course they can.

Somebody mentioned tips because they look cool. Is that really a reason to keep them if they increase the risk of seriously injuring someone? Remember, this "family" of boat racers is also someone elses family, i.e. father, brother, mother, etc. I wouldn't want to hurt anyone, especially because I was lazy and didn't want to re-fit my rigs.

Everyone is rushing to Mat's defense, mostly owners of Arltralite boats. Good old boat racing pride has clouded good, objective judgement.

It's not really inappropriate to call out the Arltralites by name, if you enter into such a venture as designing boats for sale, then you also take on the responsibility of how that design is used. No offense intended, they are beautiful boats, but designers have an inherent responsibility in their designs. I make a living as an industrial designer for a major electronics corporation. Even in that environment, I assume some form of responsibility for my designs.

Racing is dangerous by nature, that is a given. But to say we should accept that danger and turn our backs on safety advancements is a ridiculouos thought.

[Bill Huson]

Artralite is right . . .

The use of carbon fibre, strong stuff, in the Altralite hulls with pointy pickles had me going "hmmm...", but I've never been a fan of pointy pickles. My boats had blunts, about 3" - 4" athwartships because I could not find one aerodynamic engineer person who said that would be a disadvantage and most of them laughed when I said some folks think pointy pickles have less drag = more speed.

And tis true, wood under compression is strong enough to do some mighty damage. So as many pointed out, so to speak, it is the point that creates a hazard, not the material. Use of wimpy, cruasable stuff is a great idea, and I don't retrofitting boats is all that difficult but I build boats. I could see retrofit as problematic for a driver/owner who just drives and has no clue about glue/wood/composites.

Another feature I think is a good idea for new construction is composite cockpit walls. I know Mark Johnson (MJR boats) is familier with that, and of course Altralite were the the whole boat is composite. Retrofitting cockpit walls would be a PITA unless the boat is undergoing crash repair that involved the cockpit, but I would advise builders of new boats try it out.

[Composite Specialties]

Liability disclaimer

Going back to the original topic at hand, this is the disclaimer that I use to post on a plate that was mounted in all of my capsule boats towards the end of my building career. This disclaimer was developed by a commercial liability attorney. If you build boats and sell them, feel free to copy this disclaimer and have your customers sign this as a waiver, if it makes you feel safer as a manufacture. Also, take this disclaimer to your local attorney and have it checked out for yourself. When things happen, people change and everyone needs to be protected.

See attachment.

[HRTV]

Matt if might step in and moderate this thread I think you might be taking this the wrong way. The person who sent me the email was merely asking a liability question and the thread has turned into this.