What does everyone think about this?

[Brian10s]

Sam,
Your right. It would come down to $$ and how much traveling you can do. But is that a bad thing? In today's chase for the title, those in the lead, most likely travelled quite a bit. And I agree that most racers don't gear up for a High Point chase, they more likely look for the National Championship. Those that are in the hunt, probably found themselves in it mid season and now chase after it for the HOC criteria.

But I think the question is, not how to get every racer into the High Point title hunt but how to get more boats on the water? If, by changing the points to either best or a wide open formula, would you get more boats on the water, not only at smaller (ie low turnout) races but also at late season races?

I know everyone has heard the phrase "I can't get points, so I'll leave it on the trailer." What if that excuse was removed?

And those late season races, would they benefit from a couple road warriors chasing some late season points. Some races already do to a small extent but why not give all that same benefit. Read the Propeller and you will find stories on how somebody went west or south in search of points or to prevent someone from getting those same points. Why is it only a couple classes? Why not all?

What about the additional expense that APBA goes through to make sure the points are correct for each Category? Every one of them is different in some way, be it big or small. How much that is, who knows! But it's something.

The question comes back to, what do you hope to accomplish. More boats on the water or get more racers involved in the chase for High Point?

Brian 10s

[modracer7b]

How about something like this.

The best 10 or 12 point finishes from all the races that you have run. You don't need to add bonus point races because they should usually fall into the best X number of races unless you didn't finish or whatever. Now with this format, you would need a tie-breaker procedure because ties would be more likely to occur with this format. I would use as the first tie-breaker, the driver with the best nationals finish. If only one driver ran the nationals, then he would get it over the driver that did not run the nationals. Second tie-breaker could be best divisionals finish or head to head record and so on. With this format, there is no incentive to skip races for any reason because you have an opportunity to erase a bad day with a better day later in the season. Also, the high point race would often be competative right up to the end of the season as drivers erase a bad day with a better day to improve their best X number of races. The final benefit here is that the number of races needed could be kept at a lower number like 10 so that many more drivers would have a shot. The only advantage the drivers with the ability to travel to more races would have is more chances to erase a bad day. But, someone that could only make 10 or 12 races that really had his s**t together could post 10 good races and still win his title against someone who can go to 25 races. - Bill Rosado

[18W]

Brian-
I can't agree less. I have an average 7-8 hour drive every weekend each way to go to a local race. Does this qualify anyone from our region as an ironman? Why would I want to travel any further to gain a sticker and a patch? The fact is that not everyone has the same accessability to races.

I can hear it now, yes you do, the race schedule is printed and open to all. Reality check here, we are not professional racers and do not do this for work! There are a few who can afford the financial comitment and the time away to do it, but is the point to not include everyone, increase participation?

I make roughly 8-10 races per year at an average traveling cost of more than triple that of someone in neighbor region 7. Is it fair I have to travel that far to do this, no. But now it is my fault because I don't have the races to attend in my geographic area. I don't think that is a good idea.

I used to race BMX and we had a system that gave a bonus point per racer. That system was fair, because the classes with more participation got more points. Divisionals and Nationals took the multiplier for the racers as well. Go a step further and award everyone at each race the ammount of points equal to the total ammount of racers participating. A scorers nightmarwe, for sure. But that would reward everyone fairly. Bigger races score big points, smaller races would now gain more importance, and hopefully more racers!

Just thoughts to think about. Another quickie. Look at how many races we in region 8 have held. Now look at the column that says how many we have attended.
Not angry, just another opinion!
Davey18w

[Brian10s]

Davey,
I completely understand you point. Your right, for you, the current system does not work and any increase in races would not work as well. It doesn't work for most racers, that seems to be the problem. It would not work for me, as well, not becasue of geography but I would lose my happy how if I was gone for 16 weekends a summer. However, most racers don't have High Point as their goal for the season. High Points are only a goal for the few and most don't think about it until after Nationals and they start looking at HOC criteria.

I agree that bigger races should have more points. Heck, I will even go 1 step further and say if you beat the reigning National Champ, you should get additional points. How about a point system where you get more for beating the best than for beating everybody else. That way, if you are into points, you would be chasing the top guns as well as points. But now we are talking a BCS for boat racing, with computers, writers pools and stregth of schedule. I mean, we can dream but we all know this is not going to happen.

The question still stands is what does everyone want to accomplish by changing the point system? Change just for the sake of change is not alwasy good. What is the goal? Increase participation or get more racers to participate in a High Point Chase?

From what Davey says, his region already pounds the miles just to get in 8-9 races sites a year. So how can they get into the points chase? Do we lower the total to 6 races, that's 3 weekends. Then everyone will have a shot at the High Point and it can be over by July. Or do we say best 6 and then start work on the tie breaker (which most likely be Nationals and so the National Champ will win both that and High Point because everyone can score the same amount of points except for Nationals).

Or do we leave the points as they are and pretend that it helps out the overall sport and participation at all races?

[Merc1]

I goto all the same races davey does and I agree with him. First off I would never skip races or leave equipment in the trailer because I can't earn anymore points or any points at all. I LOVE TO RACE! No matter how tough or easy people may think their competition is. The points structure will not drive boat racing. Do what you will with points, I will still make as many races as I can, and yes I drive an average of 7 hours one way to almost every race I goto. The way to increase participation in the sport is get the spectators involved, that is where your new racers are, each club is responsible for that.

[Ron Hill]

Question???

Hearn ASR
Lewis CSH and 20 SSH
Donny Allen 20
Billy Allen 21 BMH
Tyler Rice 26 JH
Tom Johnson 26
CSH

How many of these guys won "High Point" in the classes they ran more than 15 races...

Having slept in car, driven a million miles with a wet crouch, drivenen all night with guys like Jimbo McConnell, Ernie Dawe, and Ted May.....I knrow that all four of us took great prinde in being NATIONAL HIGH POINT, something we achieved BEFORE any of us won an APBA National Championship...

There was a time when we weren't nearly good enough to compete at the Nationals, but desire to win High Point, something we could achieve, if we raced enough, maybe....IRONMAN might be a NEW TITLE....

Regional Champion
Divisional Champion
Winter National Champion
National Champion
High Point based on 12 best races.
and the new title,
Ironman, most points in the class.

Of course, I love classes and I love awards....(I don't like a million heats...combine classes)...

I see nothing wrong witha NEW title, "IRONMAN"...

Why not???

[Matt Dagostino]

Ron I Believe...........

We now have Ironman Awards in the form of the Waldman and Menzies (I guess they are still out there??) which guys like Glasses,Hearn,Palmquist,Dewald,Myself and many others have competed for and won over the years. There will never be a completly equitable way to balance the High Point issue given the nature of the haves and the have nots ($$$$). I always thought these type of 'special awards' filled a void and gave point chasers some incentive late in the year.

I never really cared about the High Point formats over the years but more about the watering down of our Hall Of Champions criteria. Now I believe you don't even have to win a "Closed Course Title" to be eligible for induction. To me there is really only one champion and that's the boat that carries 1-US. I always felt the commission should have mandated that the National Champ must carry 1-US on the boat to help promote the sport for spectators(also help announcers like Scot Glossner BS a little more) and reinforce what climbing the mounain is all about...........Kinda like a pride thing,goals,hard work,being an example for the new drivers and the kids.

Ron............Tell me where I am wrong.

Matt
PS.....The 1-US also makes a great target!

[dholt]

Bingo!

Bill Rosado nailed it.

Best 12 races of the year. That way, you still have incentive to go for late season races because you could erase a bad performance earlier in the year.

I have always been against the "best of" scenario. There are no mulligans in sports. You have a bad day...you live with it. But if gaining participation for the masses is possible, then it's worth a try.

As for "small" races...no one leaves their boat on the trailer for fear of ruining their point average. If you race with less than 4 boats (stock) it doesn't count as a "national" race. So, you race with 3 if you want for local/club points.

But as I said before...90% of the racing population doesn't give much thought at all about points. So no matter what format you choose, it won't make that big of a difference.

And Matt, you have to win a Closed course OR National High Point to be eligible for HOC.

And to answer Ron Hill's question...in that list of guys with a bunch of races, only Gary Lewis (20ssH) and maybe Billy Allen (BMH) are going to win National High Point.

[CSR4C]

Best Of

If it is changed to a best of format. If it is the best of 12 races a tie breaker could be the best of 13 and so on.
IMCA Modified (cars) uses this format. They do not have any bonus point races, so ties are common. The use to have best of 30 races, then changed to best of 20 races. Last years winner ran 43 races.
Darrell

[Matt Dagostino]

High Point...........No Point!

My "point "exactly. You do not have to be a National Champion to get into the Hall Of Champions..............What's wrong with that picture?

We all know High Points are a smoke and mirrors game and the level of competion varies by region. But at the Nationals there is no place to hide. I think you should have to win a closed course title to qualify. That is the really true "Champion"......................and that was the way Miller set up the original criteria. Add that to your agenda 11-W.

What do you think Ron?

MATT

[Ron Hill]

I'm too old...

I didn't know you COULD get in the Hall of Champions without winning a (The) Nationals.

As far as Waldman and Menzies Awards, I've always liked them. The IRONMAN per class just seems like a good idea...

Having attended Region 12's meeting, yesterday...I can see many races for point chasers....but, I also see us only running about 5-6 Region races in 45...
(2-3 Parker, Thanksgiving, 2 Bakersfield, March, 2 Parker, April, 2 May, Indio, 2 Long Beach, August, 2 Bakersfield, October... (13 Region 12 races for 2005)...Region 11 will have about 13 too... And ten Series for 45 that don't count for points...in Stock.

So, maybe, times have changed, and maybe just going to a few races in the NORM...

[Haüenstein]

Having attended Region 12's meeting, yesterday...I can see many races for point chasers....but, I also see us only running about 5-6 Region races in 45...
(2-3 Parker, Thanksgiving, 2 Bakersfield, March, 2 Parker, April, 2 May, Indio, 2 Long Beach, August, 2 Bakersfield, October... (13 Region 12 races for 2005)...Region 11 will have about 13 too... And ten Series for 45 that don't count for points...in Stock.

So, maybe, times have changed, and maybe just going to a few races in the NORM...

My dad and I were just talking about that this morning, and we counted something like 11 race weekends in Region 11 in 2005. Seems pretty healthy!

-mah 4D

[Big Don]

I like Bill’s idea. Gives others a shot at High Point Titles and gives incentive to go to more races to better your BEST 12.