What does everyone think about this?

[CSR4C]

Thinking out of the box

How about this:

Region high point champion = x # points (example 400 for 1st)
Divisionals = x# points (example 800 for 1st)
Winter Nationals =x# points (example 800 for 1st)
Nationals =x# points (example 1200)
Total high points at end of year =x# points (example 400 for top point)

Add them up to determine hight point champion.

Support your local races, then attend the championship races.


Darrell

[sam]

Darrell, do you mean there would be 5 factors in determining National High points?

your 5th line "Total high points at end of year =x# points (example 400 for top point)" would be a racer's regular race points converted to a "first", "second", "third" 400, 300, 225 etc?

It would be simular to reducing the regular race point value, but keeping the current points for the "big" races (but not excatly).

One thing it would do is let a driver who lives in a less dense racing area (such as Darren) be much more likely to win National High if he can sweep his Regionals and Divisionals and make it to the front 2 or 3 at the Nationals. National High Points would become even more a show of skill (and luck) than ability to take off the most days from work and drive to the most races.

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

Ain't Heard of the samson boats yet, but I **** sure heard of SORENSON.

Nother thing, also seen him an it wasn't in Marl'ynd.

Objective Opine.

[MGallagher]

I agree with Mike. Keep the same points system. The scorers would quit if they had to score each heat based upon how many boats. Drop the amount of races to 12 maybe 10.This would give more oppurtunity, more compitition, and possibly more involvement in racing. Also, give more bonus points(Hall points) to those who are divisional high points(sometimes they are harder than Nationals).

Matt Gallagher
58J

[pops67g]

Another endless debate?

For those 10 or 20 percent, or whatever, that race for the glory of stacking up points, this discussion has some merit. For many others, it is like what's all the fuss about? I race as often as I can afford to both in terms of money and time. It would be nice, I guess, to be able to race with no worries whatsoever as to keeping a job, supporting a family, making the house payment etc, etc. Change the points however you want, but the everyday responsibilities most of us have is still going to determine how much racing we are able to do.

[Ron Hill]

Don't change, everything is OK!!!

NASCAR leads the way, they change all the time......

Matt: Any HIGH POINT change would not mean that the races themselves would have to change. At the end of the day, the scorer(s) would send the results to APBA and say, 5 boats in "A", 7 in "25"....Keep the races the way the are...

FYI:

Dick McFadden and Lou Eppel were two early leaders in STOCK RACING and they always fought to make racing equitable (OR EQUAL AS POSSIBLE)...

I've been reading this thread and it seems people worry that RICH GUYS or REGIONS with a lot of boat might win HIGH POINTS... SO??? So, should a rich guy have to carry an extra five pounds in his boat because he's rich???

The first year the 15 average rule exsisted, I sat out races 16, 17 and 18. This year, 44 years later, I know one 45 SS driver who sat out races 16 and 17 for the same reason!!! (He sat out one of the best races in Region 11)... NO POINT SYSTEM SHOULD DISCOURAGE PARTICIPATION and our current system does just that..

HIGH POINTS should be HIGH POINT.... CSR4C's concept on REGIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS, DIVISIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, WINTER NATIONALS and SUMMER NATIONALS getting more point is fine, in fact it is a GREAT CONCEPT, open the systen up to the guy with the most points IS HIGH POINT.

In 1967, Jerry Waldmanand I argued this same point. He wanted the National Champion to get 3000 points...(Or some number like that) Jerry wanted the Nationals to have more value....After yelling at each other at the DePue Commission Meeting, of which I was not a member.....I walked out saying you dummies will make Jerry High Point in A, B, C, D, F Hydro if you want, but don't come crying to me when there is only ONE race a year!!!!! (Tehy did double the points for the Natioanls which seems fair to me)...

Jerry's proposal got voted down.....Jerry and I stayed best of friends, in fact, I interviewed for his job, at AC Spark Plugs, after his death....

But don't you see, HIGH PONITS drive our sport, lower the number to win the CHAMPIONSHIPS, you will lower the number of total races...

To me, if Ted May wanted to have a 365 days race for A, B and D hydro, and run against his own boats, , go for it...See what got the 15 race average passed in the first place, was rumors that Paul Kalb.....maybe Fredy Miller, too, had had a three day race on MONDAY, TUESDAY and WEDNESDAY, the last three days of October to win High Point...(Never really knew if this was true...rumors, you know)...

Region 12 and 5 always believed that APBA year's ending in OCTOBER, (Not December 31) came about so the NORTHERN REGIONS could win high point and not be forced to go to Californioa or Florida to win the Championships... Our December race was frequently a huge race, now, we don't race in December...

ADD: When was the last time you heard a Regionals or Divisionals called a CHAMPIONSHIPS????

I vote with CSRC4...HIGH POINTS is HIGH POINTS.

In water polo, they have a Championships all the time!!!

[MGallagher]

I guess this post isn't for you Pops. I am one of those 80-90 percent who have all those "everyday responsibilities" and do not glorify points.However I still would like to make a difference in the sport that I love.

Anywho, thanks for your input and keep up the good work!

Ron, some very interesting and good points made. Personally, I can make all 15 races. When the season comes around, that is all I want to do(I'm sure I speak for the majority) is go to races. I think it is fine the way it is also. The top two guys on the high points list are usually the guys chasing for it any way. And if you really wanted it you will just have to travel to the region where your competitor is racing and race there.

Matt Gallagher
58J

[dholt]

Ron Hill,

With all due respect, you are way off base thinking points is what drives Stock Outboard.

Here are the 2003 totals of drivers who competed in 15 or more races and the total number of boats in the class. I haven't compiled 2004 numbers yet, but they are probably fairly similar.

ASR- 13 OF 82
BSR 1 OF 26
CSR- 8 OF 109
DSR- 0 OF 10
25SSR- 2 OF 54
ASH- 10 OF 105
BSH- 0 OF 29
CSH- 14 OF 129
DSH- 5 OF 37
25SSH- 3 OF 38
20SSH- 14 OF 107
45SST- 1 OF 21


Those are pretty pathetic numbers of drivers competing in 15 or more races. Points mean very, very little to the large majority. If they meant a lot, you'd have more guys running more races.

Personally, I don't care much at all for National High Points. I've won a couple over the years. But until every driver races against the same competition week in and week out, it won't matter to me nearly as much as the Nationals.


Dana

[propnuts]

Encourage racing

I think if things need to be changed (and I don't think they do) then the change needs to ENCOURAGE greater participation by the racers, and perhaps more races scheduled by the local clubs. When Dana pulls out those 15 race stats, we probably race against those guys in region 10. We're fortunate to have diehard racers and a strong club, and I understand that a lot of folks don't have that kind of support where they live. Using Dana's logic that not many people care about high points, lowering the amount of races will not make them care more, it will only make them unwitting competitors for high points. Since I'm not a commisioner this year all I can do is ask the commision to think about how rules impact participation, not how they affect individuals and awards. Tony

[dholt]

Perhaps more people would care about High Points and race more if the number was reduced from 15.

If you normally race in 8-10 races and the minimum is 15...it's a stretch for you to go make 15 races...so you might blow off the last couple races of the year. Shoot, at the beginning of the year you probably blow off the thought of winning high point because getting to 15 races is out of reach.

But if the minimum was 12 races and you normally go to 8-10...then you've got a very good chance to reach 12...so you might go to 1 or 2 more events to get that 12 total and at least be in the hunt for high points.

But no matter what, do high points have anything to do with increasing participation on a grand scale???? There are way more factors involved that have to be addressed first.

Cost to race, cost to travel, entry fee are much bigger factors. Equating increased participation with the high point format? Two different issues with their own problems.


D.

[Ron Hill]

Arnold's Rug...

Arnold had a rug company. But he only had one rug. He didn't advertise it for sale, as he was afraid he'd sell his rug...

Lowering the number of races to win "HIGH POINT" seems to me as the same concept as ARNOLD'S RUG...Why not just have ONE race a year? The winner would be National Champion, National High Point Champion...and King of the Kneeler world!!!!!

Why people haven't raced more than 15 times is easy to figure out...Anyone with an IQ over 67 can figure out that to win "HIGH POINTS" all you need to do is win the Winter Nationals the Summer Nationals, and beat your three friends at the local races and you have a "LOCK" on High Points....

DUH!!!!!

[jsilvestri]

I believe that if we want to encourage racers to attend more races, then we should lower the total amount of races to 12 and make it the best 12 races. There have been times when only three boats show up at a race and guys decide to stay on the bank. The excuse is that they don't want to race if they can't earn points because it will count towards one of the 15. I certainly can't blame a guy for that, so lets give them the option of racing and possibly not using that race as one of their total. Also, the end of the year races may get better supported if guys know that the season is winding down and they can go racing, do well, and replace some point races where they didn't do so well. My two cents.

[Brian10s]

Joe,
I agree 100% on the best of deal. Get some of this equipment off the beach and on the water. However, I disagree with reducing the number of races needed. Remember, your talking races not race sites. 12 races is 6 weekends. How many people did race or could have went racing 6 weekends during the summer? Heck, that would make Dana's idea at Alexandria, KY of haveing 3 days racing over 2, that much more valuable. Rack up an extra race day of that same weekend.

I guess it all boils down to what do you want to accomplish? Do you want participation or to make winning the high point more difficult or both? If you want participation at local races (both the lower turnout and the late fall races) then you need to give those racers a carrot in order to get the boat off the trailer. If you want to make winning High Point more difficult, thus increasing its prestige, increase the races and make those that chase, really chase. Set the bar high!

If you wanted to do both, make it the best of 15 races, plus Nationals, Divisionals and North American Championships (which why Stock doesn't give extra points for that one is anybody's guess. What's the point of having a "Championship" race that cost the club money and count the same # of points as a backyard boatrace ). Now you have you best 7 1/2 weekend races, plus your National Championship, your weekend Divisionals and somewhere in there is 1 race for NAC. Basically 9 weekends and a Nationals, if you score it up. If you screw the pooch at a weekend race, you still can win by traveling in the fall.

Look at the points in Propeller:
Ed Hearn ran 21 races in ASR = 10 1/2 weekends (Minus Nationals)
Gary Lewis 21 races in CSH & 20SSH
Donny Allen 20 races in 20
Billy Allen 21 in BMH
Tyler Rice ran 26 races in J Hydro
Tom Johnston 26 in CSH
(side note - Congrats to the young Kid and the Old Guy for showing the rest of us "in our prime" racers the way. Those 2 should get a well deserved pat on the back)

Or here is an idea - no limit on races. You run from Nov 1 to Oct 31. He or she that can score the most points, wins! Forget best of or first, those are for suckers. Why not turn the High Point into the "Ironman".
That would settle most issues. Those chasing points would travel to other races and participation would increase. Races with poor class turnout could run those heats as the race would not count against your total as it does today, late season races would see a more entries from guys who are close on points. Looks like a win, win. You look at your Propeller or online, you see who is winning the points.

This is just my opinion but if you are looking for prestige, you raise the bar, not lower it.

Brian 10s

[sam]

Brian would it be Ironman or "Travelin' Man" ?
The $$$ factor will be as big as the skill factor.

When High Points was started you didn't have to travel over night and take off from work to be in the hunt for points, skill was the main factor. We don't live in that world anymore. Is National High Points truely relavent to the average racer any more? Less than a third of racers who voted on the poll here are able or willing to travel more than 24 hours to a race.

[oldunskilledalky]

Points! Who needs them?

Sam,
I think you are on the right thought train here. It seems to me points are for a few able, affordable, willing people. I would think one of many issues this organizations needs is to get racing back to its popularity of the 50's and 60's. Once there, then they could worry about "high point".
Just one of my many observation from beining on the outside. Also not trying to be critical but rather suggestive!

Mike