What does everyone think about this?

[Big Don]

Well really, I’m going to start it and we can take it from there, if you all think it is a good idea. Not everyone can make it to the National meeting for whatever reason, those reasons are not important for this exercise. There are some very smart people out there that if given the opportunity have some great ideas and knowledge on this sport. So what I propose is every week or so we pick a topic and discuss/debate what ever you want to call it. This would give us about 12 weeks or so until the meeting, (12 topics?). Everyone should spread the word to our fellow racers and tell them to chime in and give their opinion. If you know of a commissioner that does not come on here then tell them they should be.

Now the rules, no name calling, no personal comments, no one takes anything personally…you get the point. I think after a week we will beat it to death and just start repeating ourselves so then we move to the next one. If there is a lot of interest and topics maybe we cut the time shorter.

The reason I believe this would be beneficial is, we go the National meeting and there is a proposal put on the floor and you discuss it between the 6 or so people that are interested in that topic and then you have to vote. If given the opportunity to discuses and hear more information and ask questions it would possibly change the way people vote, plus we would then know the racers opinion on some of these issue. Now I know the commission has to/will make decisions we all don’t always agree with or like, but I know it happened to me in the past where after the meeting you dig deeper and you think about it from different perspective.

So here is the first topic…

Change our high point system/format. Pretty vague I know. But to start with I feel we have to lower the number of races it takes to win a high point. For me personally, it’s not hard to get to 15 for any member of our family but I feel we are the exception along with about another 20% of you… 80% of the racers have 10 races or less per class. Maybe it should be 12, maybe 10? Do we go on your first 10 or 12, do we go by your best 10 or 12, plus divisional & Nationals?


Don’t have the answer but let the debate begin.

[ian]

Not following that thread, but my own idea. Yellow flags at the point of interest on the racecourse. Blue and white flags blend easily into the background. At the 125 worlds, we used yellow flags, and they definitely got you're attention. Know what i'm saying?

[CSR4C]

Total points + bonus for #starters

I have never liked our present system in stock & mod of the first so 10 or 13 plus divisionals & nationals.
Here is what I would like to see:
Bonus points for divisional, winter nationals & nationals like now.
Bonus for number of starters in each race, for example 10 points for each starter. First place in a 4 boat race would get 440 points. 4th place would get 209 points. First place in a 12 boat race would get 520 points, 4th place 289 points 12th place 137 points.
All races will count toward high points.

The reason that all races must count for points is that a system with bonus points for each starter, if only the 1st so many races or your best so many count. Drivers will skip the small races. After all this is a High point championship not an average or best of point championship.
I did win high points in CSR one year. That year I skipped one race that was a short rough course because there was too much of a chance for a bad finish. If it were total points, I would have gone to every race I could have. That year I had 14 races in by the 4th of July. There was still half of the season left.
A high point championship should encourage attendance at races. There should never be a reason for not going to a race.

Darrell Sorensen
4-C

[CSR4C]

Yellow flag

Not following that thread, but my own idea. Yellow flags at the point of interest on the racecourse. Blue and white flags blend easily into the background. At the 125 worlds, we used yellow flags, and they definitely got you're attention. Know what i'm saying?

I like the yellow flag idea. In our region they use the black flag (the worse collor to see) to stop a race. I think that red sould be used to stop a race. Black should be used only when the course is closed & you can't go on it.
Darrell

[Cameraboy]

Flags and Points

I'd like to hear more about points alternatives. A lot of pros and cons to the "best of" and "first of" concepts. I think a goal should be a system that encourages race attendence.

On flags, we need to look at flag colors that can be seen against dark backgrounds and in flat light (and turn judges that wave flags and not hold them limply next to the boat). Yellow has been mentioned, Red is out there, Orange, Lime Green (used on fire engines years ago), Hot Pink (OK, that may be a little overboard). Make the caution and return to pits flags more visible. Flare guns are used to stop heats in most Regions. One referee out West has been known to shoot a flare "across the bow" to get drivers' attention because flags weren't seen.

[PopPop]

Point System

Why not simply multiply the present number of points by the number of boats.

Examples
6 boats
1st = 440 x 6 = 2640
2nd = 300 x 6 = 1800
10 boats
1st = 440 x 10 = 4400
2nd = 300 x 10 = 3000

I know that this will create large total point numbers. Wecan always simply shift the decimal point to the left. Computers do this as a simple step these days.
Example 4400 = 440, 2640 = 264, etc

[BP125V]

Good idea Don

Thanks Don for bringing this up. I would like to add that probably the best way for something to get done is for people to latch on to an idea(s) that they are really interested in and keep pushing until it is complete. A proposal submitted the week before the annual meeting will not cut it, there is not enough time to understand all of the pros and cons. In cases like that, those voting are inclined to stick with the status quo so as not to be responsible for a change that makes things worse. Sitting back and waiting for someone on the commission or the chairman to run with your idea won't work either.

For those of you unhappy with the current Hi point system here is your chance, you're first in line. List the pros and cons and probable outcomes if a change is made and give everyone as much time as possible to decide.

In this case I would think the goal should be to structure the criteria so as increase participation at ALL races, not just make it easier for someone to win the award. That being said I would favor all races and more races as opposed to less. I do not know what the magic number of races is though.

Bill III

[Dave M]

There Is Already.....

There is already a proposal submitted for the high point rule change for the Mod Category. John Read has a copy of it. I think it is tweaked a little from the version last year submitted but not accepted.

[dholt]

I was going to stay on the sidelines for this, buy you guys pulled me in.


Last year I submitted a proposal through my commissioner about the High Point system. Basically, it called for reducing high points from first 13 races plus Divisionals and Nationals to first 10 races.

I compiled stats on all classes with regards to how many drivers race in how many races. Basically, less than 10% of drivers compete in 15 races. It's just too many.

Anyway, it got shot down, but not by much. If anyone wants a copy, I'll email to you.

So, what would the point of going to "unlimited" races for high points be? A very, very small percentage of guys:

a. Have access to a large number of races.
b. Have the time/money to travel to a large quantity of races.

What you'd end up with is the guy with the most time and money winning high point every year. Is that what we want?

If you examine the stats this year, notice how few guys compete in 15 or more races. High points are not that big of deal, or more guys would be in that level of participation.

The only way to keep it relatively fair is to have a maximum number to average your point total by.

Some say people will pick and choose or that late season races won't be attended because guys already have 15 races. Again, look at the stats. More guys have reason to attend late races because they are far under 15 races than the very few who are at 15 or over.

National High Points will never be fair because we don't race against all the competition each week like Indycar, NASCAR, etc...

Someone will always have an advantage because of time, location, money, level of competition.

Which leads me to another proposal I made last year. Classes with larger national participation should be weighted more heavily with Hall of Champions points than weaker classes.

Why should CSH (124 boats) receive the same 5 HOC points as BSH (29 boats) for National High Point? Doesn't it stand to reason that beating 123 other guys for high point is tougher than beating 28 others?

This got shot down big time. Anyone care to reason why???


Dana

[DrRick34-0]

An idea we had proposed in our area a few years ago is very simple. If you have 10 boats, first is 10 points, 2nd is 9 etc. You use our present point system (400,300,225,etc.) to get who is the overall winner to get the 10 points, 9 points, etc. This rewards the person who has a lot of people in his class, and keeps someone from going to a bunch of small races with 4-5 boats to rack up points. Now if you want to still limit or average the number of races, that is up to you . I always thought this was a great idea. Also think about the big classes at the Nationals having 35-50 boats. You would be getting a lot of points, but also you would deserve them.

Rick Miller
35-0

[Dr. Thunder]

Rick: I like your proposed format ... except for one area ... why would a competitor at nationals ever receive more than 12 points (assuming a twelve boat field) driver is not going to be racing against the other 23-38 boats only the 11 others in his/her race? Elimination races are just that ... another race and another chance to pick up twelve points ... right or am I missing something ...

[DrRick34-0]

Dr. Thunder- That is correct. I guess he would be getting points if he were competing in the elimination heats.

Rick Miller
35-0

[Bill Huson]

Forgot the name . . .

but one or racers devised a point system based on finish place with a multiplier of boats in the race. I seem to recall a racer who finished first in a barely legal heat of four got less points overall than a racer who beat out a full field or came out on top after elimination heats in their class. I think Dave Augustine had the numbers, if he can remember where he put them. heh . . .

[Big Don]

Dana, I will tell you why I voted it down. I didn’t fully understand what we were trying to do. We are limited to such a short amount of time to discuss all the topics and issues at the meeting. Nothing against Ed because I feel he runs a great meeting but he has to keep things moving to get everything done. That is why I proposed what I did on this thread. I just didn’t feel comfortable voting something new in until I felt I was making the best decision for the majority of racers.

By the way I would vote for both proposals now after doing research and talking to several of you about this topic over the past year, or something similar to it.

Now, the argument can be made that we are not rewarding participation at all races. That is somewhat true. The truth of the mater like Dana states is only 10 % of racers get to 15 races or more. The majority 74%, race 8 races or less. The fact is what we are doing now isn’t increasing participation so raising it surely isn’t the way to go.

Don

[Haüenstein]

Thoughts and an idea

I feel like rewarding points based on number of entries is theoretically good, although for it to be fair and encourage racing in all areas of the country it would have to be either unlimited races or BEST-10/13 races. (Opening a can of worms, presumably.)

Otherwise -- forgive me for using specific examples, guys -- say Gary L. or Daren G. are going after a high point championship, weighted on number of entries, and they are compelled to skip the early-season races in CSH or 20SSH for lack of entries, thereby hurting their local racing and their own personal enjoyment.

On the other hand, here is what I would propose: Keep the current points system and lower the number to the first 10 races + divisionals + nationals. Then create a Divisional High Point Championship for each class, with possible Hall points, so that those drivers with their 12 races toward the National High Point have more incentive to race late into the year. Or perhaps regional or sectional high points provided a class meets a minimum level of participation.

Divisional/Regional/Sectional High Point could also be a stand-alone idea, I suppose, with one of the many participation-based scoring systems we're discussing here.

Weighing Hall points in general on class participation, as per Dana, could also be incorporated into this plan if folks agree on that.

Thanks for your time,
MAH
4-D