25XS Unrestricted

[jsilvestri]

Leave the Merc alone and take out the restrictor for good. There are only a couple of really good ones currently and maybe this would help encourage a few more people to dust them off.

Here's the change the 25ssr class needs the most. Make the Yamato powered boats weigh more. The current 405 pounds is silly. If you want to compete, you need a special, special, boat or you need to put an ASR driver in it or go on a really big diet. I weigh 190 pounds. At Dayton, I checked in at 468 pounds. You can not compete and give up 65 pounds.

I propose to change the weight to 430 pounds for the Yamatos. This would even the playing field. It would help eliminate putting little guys in the rigs for a weight advantage. This is stock, we don't have the brute power of the pros.

Tim

Tim,
I believe the restricted Yamato was introduced into the 25ssR class to increase the numbers in the class. At the time this was done, there were hardly any 25ssR Mercury powered boats left in the country. The Yamato helped keep the class alive. Also, when the Yamato was introduced into this class, it allowed smaller drivers to purchase existing and new equipment for the class as there wasn't a medium sized runabout class with new equipment available.

I don't race this class, so whatever the drivers want to do to help the class out is fine with me, these are just my understanding for the Yamato being in the class.

Finally, Mike Ross did some testing last fall with his Yamato to make it more competitive (slow it down) and he could restate his finding here if he reads this thread.

[14-H]

25xs

What about pulling the restrictor in the hydro class and putting a height restriction of 3/4" to keep the speed the same and not hamper the 20HR? I think this is what Steve Johnson was proposing on the previous page.

In the Runabout class, there is a problem: if the yamato runs at true 25 weight (as opposed to a CSR just putting a restrictor in), the 25 will probably go faster than the CSR. Therefore, what about putting two weights for the yamato engine: the CSR weight at 3/4" height restriction (current height) or 25SSR weight at 1-3/8" height restriction (like the Merc and the Hot Rod have to run)?

[Steve Johnson]

Well actually....

The ht restriction was more than I had in mind. I'd keep that option in reserve though. The speed dif restricted vs not is so minor I wouldn't worry about it. What this does is let a guy crack the throttle and set up for the turn vs blasting through eyes wide shut. I have had no problem with my slightly smallish 25 hydro with xs speed. nothing really changes except raceability. and fun, and safety. as for the hot rods they need to get busy before we make any judgment on them. I think my 20 cube during the late 80s would more than keep up as was. Boat size will end up being the final issue IMHO. in a perfect world sales would be so great they would warrent there own class again.

[mike ross]

I think Ed is on the right track. The weight of the Yamato in 25ssr needs to be set at 475 the same as C weight if we use the current restrictor and current height. We know from watching different rigs that if you can run the rig say 50 lbs lighter it definitly is faster than one that is at the 475 weight. If I was to suggest another fix I would go with what Ed brought up. If you run a yamato and want to keep the restrictor the same and height the same. then your total weight should be 475. If you want to run the current 25ssr weight then you run the same restrictor but go to 1 3/4 below the bottom to slow the rig down due to the weight being so much lower. When we tested this the rig at 1 3/4 below the bottom slowed the rig slowed down 3 mph but we were running at 465. I will put a proposal together so we can vote on it. Lets get our thoughts out here and then we will put together what makes the best sence for 2006 year. As far as the Hydros. Get rid of the restrictor. the height needs to be talked about by hydro drivers to see what they think makes sense. Mike

[pops67g]

Mothballed 25XS

I have a 25XS hanging in the shop because none of the kids want to run it. They would much rather run the 25 Mod because of the throttle response that is so lacking with the restricted motor. These motors are much more popular down South where they run them without the restrictor. Make the change to unrestricted before I decide to part the motor out to use the tower and clamps on my 44.

[Bob Dunlap]

I think this is an excellent idea, right now the CSR dominate the class and a top Merc 25SSR is the only one that is even close. We can just add the weight to the CSR which are running as 25SSR or if they want to run the min 25SSR weight lower the prop height, but have either option. I think we should throw away the restrictor for the Merc and as far as the Hot Rod is concerned we could lower the min weight for them as an incentive to get them on the water. After all it is a 25 class and if other boats are allowed to dominate the class we will never get any true 25s on the water. I have both a HotRod and a Yamato for 25SSR and the way it is now I would never dream of running anything but the Yamato.

[mercguy]

sounds good!

What about pulling the restrictor in the hydro class and putting a height restriction of 3/4" to keep the speed the same and not hamper the 20HR? I think this is what Steve Johnson was proposing on the previous page.

In the Runabout class, there is a problem: if the yamato runs at true 25 weight (as opposed to a CSR just putting a restrictor in), the 25 will probably go faster than the CSR. Therefore, what about putting two weights for the yamato engine: the CSR weight at 3/4" height restriction (current height) or 25SSR weight at 1-3/8" height restriction (like the Merc and the Hot Rod have to run)?

I like this proposal! I believe it would also bring in more boats for the 25SSR class from the true CSR boats. I am like Tim, I just cannot compete with my current CSR rig in 25SSR, even with the lead removed. But, the class should not be catered to the CSR guys running the class. So, do what the majority feels is right.......in my opinion!

although, I imagine a Yamato powered CSR restricted must be a REAL TURD at CSR weights coming out of the turns????? I have heard maybe some guys were running A wheels in 25SSR?

[ryan_4z]

This class is becoming a joke. Every year we are going to go throught this. You aren't going to achieve complete parity between these motors, they are just to different. A few years ago, when we were running a lot of AOF races here in Region 4, I remember a lot of people complaining about the AOF class structure, that it was disorganized. At the time this was the only thing I didn't like about AOF. But now this is the direction we are taking Stock Outboard. If we keep heading in this direction we will have multiple motors in every class and have to try to achieve equality in all of them. We were heading this way in the A class a couple of years ago. Thank god we A drivers stood up for our class then, because I sure wouldn't want to have to go through all these changes every year, to try and acheive parity that just won't exist. Instead we should be facing facts, there just aren't enough 25's left to justify even having a class. Dana Holt has said it many times, we need to go back to having minimum class standards. This would solve a lot of the problems we have. This discussion would never have to take place if we had class standards.

[3rd Chance]

amen Ryan, someone has to start getting this through to people
I for one, am sick of seeing 3 boat fields

[mike ross]

Ok this minumum class thing is a great idea. What ever happened to the rule we had that if we didn't have 12 boats in a final the class went on probation. At this years nationals we had several classes with less than 12 boats. 25ssh,DSH,DSR, there may have been others. We need to look close at this and get the National classes down to as low as possible. There is no problem with running non National classes on a local level. I think everyone needs to sit down and think out a plan that might help us going forward. Then call your commisioner and get your ideas on paper. Send these ideas to Ed Hearn and when we are in Fort Lauderdale we can put our heads together and have a program that works. This is the time to do this. I'm sure Ed would like this in front of him a month before the meeting takes place so he can organize the agenda. Ed works hard to make Stock Outboard a fair and fun place to go racing. I hate seeing people come up after the Natonal meeting and share there thoughts after its to late to do anything. Lets be pro active not reactive in the next few weeks so we can have a very productive meeting. Mike

[Steve Johnson]

Am I missing something here?

Didn't this class combination thing happen To increase entries?
Why is this Bad?
In a democracy are we not supossed to have discussions?
Are all the 25 mercs that are NO fun to race as some committiee decided they should be run 17 years ago (restricted) suposed to just go to waste? As well as some drivers?
This class was to be a test bed for this. clearly Yamatos are dominate. needs a small tweak. the least offensive is to un handicap the underdog. I would think more entries (drivers ) are the ultimate goal. sitting around when something needs a minor adjustment is NOT working toward the goal. If it don't work Un tweek it and try something else. People are not racing the 25 merc cause it's a bad ride with the carb plate. simple.
steve

[Mike 41P]

get 'true c's' out of 25ssr and 20ssh

Let's get a little logic in here. We often remark about how crowded it is in 20SSH right? SORC let restricted C's into 20SSH because of a decline in Y80's. And then up above I see there are folks concerned with making the restricted C's even more dominent in another class where they don't belong, 25SSR.

20SSH is almost a joke now, it main purpose seems to be to give's the CSH's two races each day!

Then we go and add 20SS to 25SSR (which has some merit for the Y80 engine) AND CARRY THE 102/302'S ALONG! So now the CSR's also get to race twice.

Can't anyone see this is silly?

Here is a real answer. Let's start by naming the HR15 back to 15SSH/R. Now lets recreate BSH/R with the Y80, HR20 and M25XS. If we try just a little, this really can work. I'd rather we had no restrictors, max height = 0" and then worked with boat weight if we need to level the field. But I would accept the XS restrictor if that is what we vote for. This would take us from 3 classes (20SSH, 25SSH, 25SSR) to two classes (BSH, BSR) with an interesting mix of engines. And with the return of HR20 we do not need those CSH/CSR's clogging up the course.

I wonder if anyone at all will agree with this. Can you see my point Ed Hern?

Mike Thierfelder

[csh2z]

25 Runabout & 25 Hydro are two different issues, and should be dealt with separately. Keep in mind, this class will eventually become a 20 cu.in. Hot Rod class. Once these motors become available, we must have a place (class), that currently exists, for these motors to become competitive immediately. This is going to take time & PLANNING. The commission is responsible for the future of the sport. The goal is that by the planned evolution of the 25 class, the Hot Rod will become the motor of choice. The reason for this is that we have a viable company to produce new motors for stock outboard for the forseeable future. We are not in a position to blow this oppurtunity. Currently we are artificially keeping this class alive within this speed range long enough for the Hot Rod to be developed and produced. Again this will take time, years, so we must be patient and focussed on our future. When this works, our sport will be marketable. We have to make buying a race motor a good investment in order for us to grow. Our product is good. The sport is exciting, fun, cool, and great for families. That's why we do it. We can't continue to mold this sport for our own selfish benefit year after year and expect growth. We, are not as important as future boat racers. Most of the people that raced in the forties and fifties are retired or gone yet racing still exists. My hope is that after I retire (one way or the other), racing will still flourish. John Runne 2-Z

[mercguy]

Wtf???????

Let's get a little logic in here. We often remark about how crowded it is in 20SSH right? SORC let restricted C's into 20SSH because of a decline in Y80's. And then up above I see there are folks concerned with making the restricted C's even more dominent in another class where they don't belong, 25SSR.

20SSH is almost a joke now, it main purpose seems to be to give's the CSH's two races each day!

Then we go and add 20SS to 25SSR (which has some merit for the Y80 engine) AND CARRY THE 102/302'S ALONG! So now the CSR's also get to race twice.

Can't anyone see this is silly?

Here is a real answer. Let's start by naming the HR15 back to 15SSH/R. Now lets recreate BSH/R with the Y80, HR20 and M25XS. If we try just a little, this really can work. I'd rather we had no restrictors, max height = 0" and then worked with boat weight if we need to level the field. But I would accept the XS restrictor if that is what we vote for. This would take us from 3 classes (20SSH, 25SSH, 25SSR) to two classes (BSH, BSR) with an interesting mix of engines. And with the return of HR20 we do not need those CSH/CSR's clogging up the course.

I wonder if anyone at all will agree with this. Can you see my point Ed Hern?

Mike Thierfelder

you must be out of your mind, when you state 20SSH is a joke!!!!!! It is now become one of the largest stock classes out there. Yes, the 102/302 were allowed, being restricted, but all that did was bring all the 80 from out of garages and under benches. The class is still HEAVILY dominated by the 80 and is also the motor that wins the championships! If you race 20SSH and CSH you will know there are ALOT different from one another.

PO'd 20SSH racer......

[craig murden]

25ssr

A great debate and high time!

Mike Ross and Mike Thierfelder along with Time Weber and Mr. Hearn have nailed the issue for 25SSR.

My vote is to either raise the Merc and HR height AND lower the weight--OR-- increase the Yamato weight--substantially.

Removing the Merc restrictor should be a given.

Here's a chance to return this class to the engines and drivers for which it was intended. And, if we look to the future for either a new 20 HR or existing 25XS Merc, the prognosis for spare parts may be brighter than for the Yamato.