SO class reduction proposal, lithium version

[raceright]

You need to step back and think about your comparison. It is not fair to compare dirt bikes, snowmobile, jet ski, or quads to our sport. It is absurd.

Those toys are available nationwide, have established brands, have dealers who stock them, and the big one is they can get financing for one. Ask Same Hemp if he can sell a boat to a newbie and accept $75.00 a month for 15 years....... you see my point ?

There will always be people with more money than you and I, or anyone here. Some choose to race boats, some don't. What sets us apart from dirt bikes, and quads and jet skis ? We offer very little compared to the potential of buying a jet ski, or a quad. They can race the STREET STOCK off the shelf quad most likely every weekend at the local track and get the same experiences as we do, grass roots racing, recognition among a small number of racers and friends, and the ability to brag at work that they won the race last weekend. From here there is a chance for them to pick up a national ride on a pro circuit. We can't offer that.

So I contend money is still very much an issue with the grass roots racing we do. Always has been, and always will be. And then we muck it up even further with so many rules even the inspector and referee have to have a meeting at the races to interpret the rule. You see, more rules add cost to the local racer. Like it or not, that is barrier. If the stock category would step back and look at the core group of boat racers and focus on less than rich class, they would pick up more racers than any other change.

Dave maybe just maybe someone of you will see my point it is exposure that is needed not class restructuring unless ya go down to the local Outboard shop and declare what they have in stock legal in some classes and buy them and run them, Stock outboard will continue on the same path.

And that will mean less of everything for all Boatracing.

If ya gonna stay with the same program then through out the rule book and stop getting everyone upset--just run what ya bring and set race schedules at races accordingly. Done anyway in some regions.

[raceright]

can picture 5 wealthy people at a club meeting. All without enough boats in their class for National Points... and wondering where everyone went! They will have to race each other and pay a $200 per class entry feel... with no-one to run the race or man the crash boats!



Pete gonna happen anyway--already did in some regions in Pro.

Remember I brought 3 500 runabouts for three years to several races in region !

had fun definatly, but it was more like testing for us--had alot to do with making our 500USTS entry better--but it did not grow.
As Matt refers to we on L I have all the money and I will bring more than one rig to races but as you guys keep saying make it cheaper and it will grow--well its been cheap for a long time as they say HOW'S THE GROWTH DOING FOR YA.

Na nothing ever got better by getting cheaper except Wall Mart is that the kind of racing we want--- Not Me.

[Doug4N]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14J
Dean-

I strongly agree with this part of your statement.

To the Masses -

It’s equally important that we address our value proposition. A realignment will have a trickledown effect. It will foster class density and more competitive race fields. It will allow for different heat formats, multiple race days, special events, etc.

What kills me about our sport is the cost/benefit equation. From “My Perspective” this is a hobby and I invest accordingly. I own (1) Yamato rig, 5 or so props, and a small enclosed trailer. I have more than 10k invested in a competitive rig. Now because of my size 20SSH is not viable for me, I race CSH only (don’t touch this one captain). What do I get out of the weekend after driving 4-5 hours after work on a Friday? A total of 6 laps per day and in the case of CSH I might only get 1 elimination heat. If I want more water time I have to drop another 5k,10k, maybe 15k on a second class. This math doesn’t makes sense to me, my bank account, my retirement plans, or my family's welfare.

So I’ll say it again “It’s equally important that we address our value proposition”.

Singing to the choir! What I don't understand is why more people do not see this picture. Not only can we enhance the value proposition for the new name racer, we can enhance it for the existing racer! We can make this change while still keeping 90% of the equipment raced on the water. Additionally, if we can get the 25SSH into 400CCH then everyone still has a home.




How will class consolidation add value or decrease cost to us racers? And why isn't a 25XS Merc legal as a C Mod?

Respectfully Submitted

Doug 4 N

[14J]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14J
Dean-

I strongly agree with this part of your statement.

To the Masses -

It’s equally important that we address our value proposition. A realignment will have a trickledown effect. It will foster class density and more competitive race fields. It will allow for different heat formats, multiple race days, special events, etc.

What kills me about our sport is the cost/benefit equation. From “My Perspective” this is a hobby and I invest accordingly. I own (1) Yamato rig, 5 or so props, and a small enclosed trailer. I have more than 10k invested in a competitive rig. Now because of my size 20SSH is not viable for me, I race CSH only (don’t touch this one captain). What do I get out of the weekend after driving 4-5 hours after work on a Friday? A total of 6 laps per day and in the case of CSH I might only get 1 elimination heat. If I want more water time I have to drop another 5k,10k, maybe 15k on a second class. This math doesn’t makes sense to me, my bank account, my retirement plans, or my family's welfare.

So I’ll say it again “It’s equally important that we address our value proposition”.

Singing to the choir! What I don't understand is why more people do not see this picture. Not only can we enhance the value proposition for the new name racer, we can enhance it for the existing racer! We can make this change while still keeping 90% of the equipment raced on the water. Additionally, if we can get the 25SSH into 400CCH then everyone still has a home.




How will class consolidation add value or decrease cost to us racers? And why isn't a 25XS Merc legal as a C Mod?

Respectfully Submitted

Doug 4 N

Hi Doug –

You’ve grouped a post of mine with a response made by Dean Sutherland. Although I agree with Dean I want to be clear on which words are mine. I’ll take your first question.

“How will class consolidation add value or decrease cost to us racers?”

Maximize the ROI.

Condensing the race program is in part about time (benefit). Time to run additional race days over a weekend (benefit), time to run non-traditional heat/lap formats (benefit), time to run special events such as marathons, grand prix’s, etc. (benefit), but most importantly more water time (benefit).

Campaign a single rig (cost) and receive the water time (benefit) usually associated with campaigning two (cost) even three rigs (cost). Campaign two rigs but you’d better bring some Advil.

We’ve increased your net benefits and we’ve decreased your cost.

I realize we can’t look past the fiscal health of our clubs. If we lose a few entries in grouping two existing motors we’ll make up for it by offering what I laid out above. People can run the same stuff more often. I’d rather pay one, two, even three additional entries over a weekend than having $5k-$10k tied up in rig #two just to get the benefit of water time. What is the true cost of rig #two, #three, and so on? Travel fuel, tow vehicle choice, trailer size, equipment maintenance, and so on and so forth. I would think in today’s economic times this would matter. People want bang for their buck especially when it comes to hobby participation.

It’s funny; some of the same people who complain about the cost of a $4,500.00 motor are the same people who have two rigs sitting on the beach. What if you could run that $4,500.00 motor three or four times every weekend? Is it still considered expensive? Or is it a matter of ROI?

Not sure if I’ve answered your question but you at least have my thoughts on the topic.

Troy

P.S. Didn't have time to spell check

[jeff55v]

Class consolidation.

Here's a neat idea. Allow no boat's date of original manufacture to be newer than it's engine's original date of manufacture.
BAM!

(It's just a little outboard motor... buy a new one)

[Doug4N]

Hi Doug –

You’ve grouped a post of mine with a response made by Dean Sutherland. Although I agree with Dean I want to be clear on which words are mine. I’ll take your first question.

“How will class consolidation add value or decrease cost to us racers?”

Maximize the ROI.

Condensing the race program is in part about time (benefit). Time to run additional race days over a weekend (benefit), time to run non-traditional heat/lap formats (benefit), time to run special events such as marathons, grand prix’s, etc. (benefit), but most importantly more water time (benefit).

Campaign a single rig (cost) and receive the water time (benefit) usually associated with campaigning two (cost) even three rigs (cost). Campaign two rigs but you’d better bring some Advil.

We’ve increased your net benefits and we’ve decreased your cost.

I realize we can’t look past the fiscal health of our clubs. If we lose a few entries in grouping two existing motors we’ll make up for it by offering what I laid out above. People can run the same stuff more often. I’d rather pay one, two, even three additional entries over a weekend than having $5k-$10k tied up in rig #two just to get the benefit of water time. What is the true cost of rig #two, #three, and so on? Travel fuel, tow vehicle choice, trailer size, equipment maintenance, and so on and so forth. I would think in today’s economic times this would matter. People want bang for their buck especially when it comes to hobby participation.

It’s funny; some of the same people who complain about the cost of a $4,500.00 motor are the same people who have two rigs sitting on the beach. What if you could run that $4,500.00 motor three or four times every weekend? Is it still considered expensive? Or is it a matter of ROI?

Not sure if I’ve answered your question but you at least have my thoughts on the topic.

Troy

P.S. Didn't have time to spell check

Hi Troy

I can empathise with your argument. If we were speaking about a race where just stock was run, I would be inclined to side a little more with you. This is not the case though. I am being asked to throw away my 10k investment to allow what will be a smaller stock category and mods and some pros to run at a race. Why should I take one for the stock outboard team for other divisions? If we ran just stock or just mod at a race, this would be a non issue. All the clubs need the money so we run together which is great. I run some mod and pro stuff but that is not the point. Steve Noury and the folks at SSOA have been doing a great job of doing exactly what you are asking for, marathons and different formats. We need an expiditor at the races. If we regularly sent heats out every 10 minutes, we could get way more racing in. I am not complaining about how races are being run, I am saying we need to rethink how we run races. Our survival can not be based on a romantic idea of yesteryear. Drastic measures are called for but we need to carefully examine our options.

Respectfully Submitted

Doug 4N

[G Stillwill]

To add if ones that have rigs would race more then one weekend a season they would get boat time.

[raceright]

Hi Troy

I can empathise with your argument. If we were speaking about a race where just stock was run, I would be inclined to side a little more with you. This is not the case though. I am being asked to throw away my 10k investment to allow what will be a smaller stock category and mods and some pros to run at a race. Why should I take one for the stock outboard team for other divisions? If we ran just stock or just mod at a race, this would be a non issue. All the clubs need the money so we run together which is great. I run some mod and pro stuff but that is not the point. Steve Noury and the folks at SSOA have been doing a great job of doing exactly what you are asking for, marathons and different formats. We need an expiditor at the races. If we regularly sent heats out every 10 minutes, we could get way more racing in. I am not complaining about how races are being run, I am saying we need to rethink how we run races. Our survival can not be based on a romantic idea of yesteryear. Drastic measures are called for but we need to carefully examine our options.

Respectfully Submitted

Doug 4N

You guys are faced with the realization that everyone is going to have to rethink there own position about boatracing just think of the following. all expenses involving any racing is going to increase,insurance (required by most if not all city waterways) it will always go up,,TRANSPORTATION COSTS WAY UP, MOTEL COST WAY UP, EATING OUT WHILE AWAY WAY UP--AND MANY MORE ITEMS WAY UP AND INCREASING EVERYDAY.

So ya want to have more time on the water but need more entries to cover costs--two choices you will have to raise entry fee's or have multiple boats some want to just call the class they own boats in something else-and race again. Ah kind of a sneaky way but what ever floats ya boat lololo

So whats next Pete ya gonna give some a grant or something lololol

USTS saw this 20 years ago and started its own series in Pro. We had to find sponsors and travel but at least we get 1 test day 2 days racing 3 heats per day per classes you own equiptment in--if ya want more seat time ya have to have more engines or engines and boats (most have multiple boats)

Most USTS races have some Sponsor money usually $5,000.00 or more
when we as a whole Directors and members wish to race somewhere that does not have sponsor money we use money that was in bank account to fund it and when we have money left from more genorus sponsors we replace it.
Working so far and we have another race added to the schedule this year.

I know what I'm about to say will possibly upset some but if ya been to a USTS race in the last several years you might have noticed this,Boats are much faster and require tremendous work. At speeds of near and over 100mph 3 heats per class per day requires alot of help and only the young ones want more than that.

Guy's I'm only trying to help and those who personaly know me know my comments are ruff but well meaning.

Pat Wright

[14J]

To add if ones that have rigs would race more then one weekend a season they would get boat time.

That's easy to toss out there. George you must have deep pockets.

Don't take my discussion with Dave the wrong way, it's not an attack, I'm simply stating an opinion that some would agree with. My conversation is not about how many races you attend it's about the incentive to attend.

In MY OPINION there's little incentive to come out and play. Sure I like see my friends and have a beer on the weekend but I don't need to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars to do so. What I want out of a race weekend is value for my investment. To me that is a benefit/cost equation. To me water time is the benefit and end game.

Why is Friday testing so popular? Sure, you can fine tune for a race but I would suggest that you get more boat time on a Friday test session than you do in a 1/3 season of racing. Again doesn't make sense to me.


You're solution is for people like myself to spend even more money. Get to more races. Take off of work, travel 4-5 hours to what is considered a local race, etc. so I can get that extra 12 laps of racing over (2) days. Trust me I've tried and I can't sell this model to anyone. People I know think I am crazy.

In my case I'm ok with spending the money just give me some value for it.

We need to make it more attractive for not only current racers but those we hope will join us. Once we get there I am in full support of your comment that people need to dust off their equipment and get out to more races (that includes me).

[Dave M]

Preaching to the Choir

You know, most of these suggestions have been brought up for the last 20 years in even modified racing. So I tend to think nothing will change. I sincerely some of you prove me wrong. SOmething needs changed, and a big change is needed, not baby steps. The baby steps started 20 years ago.

You want value ? Before the 850CC Mod class got mucked up with the rules and the new fancy machining and morphed additions of front covers and internal workings, it was a strong class. Look at it now. You have a few around my neck of the woods, that show up week in and week out. The same 44 mods step up to make it a show, and test. But the same boats win as they have the stuff of a few. In other words the expensive stuff.

Before all this, you could take a stock OMC triple and prop it right with a good hull and compete. Your investment was less than a D stock rig, and 15 MPH faster with a ton more punch. You could compete. There was no barrier to entry to the class. It began to grow and with a few simple mods like porting, etc you could be in top contention. Now you need 10K. How do you grow that class ? You don't, you let it die. Once the mods go to larger courses these stock engines no longer can compete, but with 95% of the courses being short, it is very doable.

I am simply telling you thins as an example of how to grow. A model sort to speak. Look to the mistakes, and learn. We have a category for bore and storke, it is Pro. Not Mod. Not stock. As soon as the cost of the class went up, people are starting to realize this class is tough and expensive. So now you know, expensive does not work. You need a minimal cost to get into racing, and it needs to be easy. Once this is true, the sport can grow. There are some other models out there now, and they are doing real well. Maybe the writing was on the wall years and years ago.... and maybe some took the time to read it.

[14J]

Steve Noury and the folks at SSOA have been doing a great job of doing exactly what you are asking for, marathons and different formats....

.....I am saying we need to rethink how we run races. Our survival can not be based on a romantic idea of yesteryear. Drastic measures are called for but we need to carefully examine our options.

Respectfully Submitted

Doug 4N

Doug-

I couldn't agree with you more. I think SSOA does a great job. SSOA's program is much closer to where I think we need to be. How is that done? There is a finite class schedule that allows for everything I'm asking for. There’s no 4 boat heats, you guys run strong classes and work in special events even extra race days.

Maybe I've found my solution. Only race in New England.

If I could only get an unnamed boat builder to cut some wood.

[G Stillwill]

Troy I was just pickin at ya but no I dont have deep pockets , if I didnt build my own boats and do my own motors I couldnt race either. And I can dumpster dive with the best of them except Gary Pond aka Fred G hes got me beat...lol. I like boat time also be it racing or testing and I never reset the odometer on my GPS and the last I looked it has over 5000 test miles on it. Just saying,have a Merry Christmas buddy

[Howie Nichols]

/we get 1 test day 2 days racing 3 heats per day per classes you own equiptment in--Pat Wright

Pat no offense to you or USTS since they have something that works for those select few, but (I know you'll correct me if I am wrong )Don't the majority of the USTS classes race either Sat or Sun but not both?

So if I am correct you get to test all day Friday then get 3 heats of racing (if you only run 1 class) over the whole weekend?

[14J]

Troy I was just pickin at ya but no I dont have deep pockets , if I didnt build my own boats and do my own motors I couldnt race either. And I can dumpster dive with the best of them except Gary Pond aka Fred G hes got me beat...lol. I like boat time also be it racing or testing and I never reset the odometer on my GPS and the last I looked it has over 5000 test miles on it. Just saying,have a Merry Christmas buddy

George to be truthful if I could get Reed off the golf course and get him to start building my “****’n” boat you'd see a lot more of me. At this rate I might as well buy a set of clubs and join him.

Have a great holiday!

[reed28n]

Golf

I can get a golf membership at a near by club for less money than it cost me to race a season of Stock Outboard. People are all playing the same game by the same rules. The course is in the same place each time I play and I can be home by 2:00.

I might be better at golf. And they have beer too!

Merry Christmas...