SO class reduction proposal, lithium version

[Matt Dagostino]

King Of Troy!

To the Masses -

It’s equally important that we address our value proposition. A realignment will have a trickledown effect. It will foster class density and more competitive race fields. It will allow for different heat formats, multiple race days, special events, etc.

What kills me about our sport is the cost/benefit equation. From “My Perspective” this is a hobby and I invest accordingly. I own (1) Yamato rig, 5 or so props, and a small enclosed trailer. I have more than 10k invested in a competitive rig. Now because of my size 20SSH is not viable for me, I race CSH only (don’t touch this one captain). What do I get out of the weekend after driving 4-5 hours after work on a Friday? A total of 6 laps per day and in the case of CSH I might only get 1 elimination heat. If I want more water time I have to drop another 5k,10k, maybe 15k on a second class. This math doesn’t makes sense to me, my bank account, my retirement plans, or my family's welfare.

So I’ll say it again “It’s equally important that we address our value proposition”.

In case you forgot Stock Outboard racing is 'sprint' racing. If it's laps your looking for i heard Josh Pearson is looking for 'a few good men' for DSR Marathon Racing!! Just think, you can kill 2 birds with one stone. Tons of laps over any given weekend and a guarenteed weight loss program all in one!! Now i call that a 'Value Proposition"...............Ho Ho Ho.

I heard Reed plans to have Santa deliver your new CSH boat next weekend!! But then again he said that last Christmas!!

The Captain

ps.................i heard Big Don has us 2 front row seats for the Redwings game friday night in Detroit for us. Beers are on you!

[G Stillwill]

Well said Peter

[reed28n]

2 tiers of Racer

Peter has done an excellent job of laying out two tiers of racers.

We have national racers and local racers. Use his nostalgia argument, his hey that boat looks cool argument, his race what your dad raced argument or just plain being able to travel.

APBA should be focused on competiton in National classes. A smaller number of classes that we can consistently promote and brand in every Region.

Run these classes in the heart of your schedule to be your brand to attract new racers to those classes that we have identified for growth based on what we APBA sees as our future.

Let the local clubs put what ever they want on their schedule each club has reasons for combining classes and categories that won't end.

Every category has this two tier racer scenerio and we have over the years diluted our driver pool by never having a plan to let motors or classes die a natural death.

[raceright]

I have to disagree..... When you go to a local race or even the Nationals, I'm sure you see people who really can't afford to compete. I see it at every single race. Racers with really old boats and engines just going through the motions because they love to race! There are a lot of people who really don't have a prayer of winning. Not all of these people are young people either... but some of them are our future racers! How easy would it be to make things so finacially difficult for these people that they are pushed out? Who do we replace them with, because you have just eliminated 35% of the current racers. Can we afford to loose a lot of people, especially in this economy? I don't know what the answer is, but I know that we can't afford to make a mistake with what we do decide to do!

Well said, some might call the less fortunate Stock Outboard racers a big part of the 'silent majority'.

Merry Christmas Pete[/QUOTE]

Matt

We have had a simular talk last year in Seattle if you remember--I submit that the drivers who are struggling to compete and have a modest budget (or even have a budget) will figure out a way to get stuff and be there as they love Boatracinbg the most, they do not need protecting.

Are you sure this thing about cost is not really a hidden agenda about not spending money on boatracing cause they already have the best stuff, and are ahead of the line not wanting a level playing field, or want to spend there money on other toys, like $40,000.00 trucks,$30,000.00 fishing boats,expensive vacations and the such.

I for one are always conserened with peopleS agenda when it focuses around money, Poor, Rich, Middle Class, boat racers. BALONEY.

There has always been and there will always be a place for the less fortunate in boat racing they do not need to be QUOTE taken care of with rules ,classes ,or any other Bull--they love what we do the most and will be there. Not a reason for these newly discovered lights.

[raceright]

Peter has done an excellent job of laying out two tiers of racers.

We have national racers and local racers. Use his nostalgia argument, his hey that boat looks cool argument, his race what your dad raced argument or just plain being able to travel.

APBA should be focused on competiton in National classes. A smaller number of classes that we can consistently promote and brand in every Region.

Run these classes in the heart of your schedule to be your brand to attract new racers to those classes that we have identified for growth based on what we APBA sees as our future.

Let the local clubs put what ever they want on their schedule each club has reasons for combining classes and categories that won't end.

Every category has this two tier racer scenerio and we have over the years diluted our driver pool by never having a plan to let motors or classes die a natural death.

I donot disagree with Scott here--heck it is his category run with it Scott

Pat Wright

[14J]

In case you forgot Stock Outboard racing is 'sprint' racing. If it's laps your looking for i heard Josh Pearson is looking for 'a few good men' for DSR Marathon Racing!! Just think, you can kill 2 birds with one stone. Tons of laps over any given weekend and a guarenteed weight loss program all in one!! Now i call that a 'Value Proposition"...............Ho Ho Ho.

I heard Reed plans to have Santa deliver your new CSH boat next weekend!! But then again he said that last Christmas!!

The Captain

ps.................i heard Big Don has us 2 front row seats for the Redwings game friday night in Detroit for us. Beers are on you!

You're kidding right? Go back and read my post, I'm dead serious. I don't buy the sprint racing defense either. For what it costs to put a rig together, let alone attend a race, for all of 6 laps on a saturday is a joke. You can't sell that to anyone (maybe a handful of crazies). Matt you know better. Oh wait, you don't... you mooch off Mel.

Merry Christmas

Wise A **

[B1PRORACER]

...just be very careful with what you do.

"I have to disagree with your comments here in that when I go to my boat club meeting and I look around the room at who would be able to afford to buy a SW for their class if their current equipment is obsoleted - I guarantee that it is a fraction of those who are currently racing. If I come across as wanting to protect current equipment it is not because I have blinders on or am trying to protect my trailer box, it is because I am trying to keep my club intact!"
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That is exactly what I was thinking when I wrote my last items on this thread.

If you pull out all those who are struggling to race, you are going to kill many racing classes in various parts of the country. Many classes would no longer be a viable “National” classes anymore. Local clubs will suffer and some will most likely fold… It is far easier to kill a class that it is to create one.
Our racing is sitting rather precariously on the fence. I worry about what the landscape would look like after we implement some of these proposals. Remember those decisions would be irreverible.....

I can picture 5 wealthy people at a club meeting. All without enough boats in their class for National Points... and wondering where everyone went! They will have to race each other and pay a $200 per class entry feel... with no-one to run the race or man the crash boats!

In "beginner racing", inexpensive equipment is necessary to get people started in our sport and for others to stay in it. I have observed that many of the most popular classes are also the least expensive classes!
Cost is a barrier to getting involved in this sport. In outboard racing, the award money doesn’t justify the expense! If you want the "magic cure", the answer is money!

[Matt Dagostino]

Spot on!!

In "beginner racing", inexpensive equipment is necessary to get people started in our sport and for others to stay in it. If you want the "magic cure", the answer is money!

One of the neat things about Stock Outboard racing is that there is something for everyone price wise!! If we try to flush all the affordable engines/classes down the toilet we will be in bigger trouble. Keeping the Yamato the MOTOR OF CHOICE in 20ssh and CSH seems paramount to me. It would be nice though to make the 302 the clear choice one of these days!

Peter is right, very few folks can cough up 5 grand for a Sidewinder or $6500 for a Tahatsu. But for those that can, that is great and hopefully growth will be forthcoming and steady!!

I agree with Dean on the current BSH/BSR issue with the ole Hot Rod being out of date. However i thought the Sidewinder by now would have surpassed the ole Hot Rod and the Tate's, Young's Stillwill's, Sutherland's and Sidor's of the racing community would be compelled to update their equipment and run the Sidewinder. But why would they if the new Sidewinder is still 2mph off the ole Hot Rods!! As Reed said, multiple motors in a class and parity is a tough chore to achieve and moderate. Parity to me at it's best only creates 'indecision'.........i imagine we will all find a middle ground somewhere.

And yes Troy, i am being a wise ass...........just keeping with the festive holiday season!!

Matt

[MGallagher]

Matt,
Easy on the subconcious sidewinder attack in that last one. The Sidewinder is $4500 not $5000, or just round up the Tahatsu to $7000 also, and the Tahatsu is 2mph off the Merc as well.

Sorry, but alot of out in the open and "under-your-breath" sidewinder bashing has gone on in all these threads. Racing Outboards is the only 2 stroke performance marine motor produced in the USA!!! SUPPORT IT!!! The sacrifice that Ed and Ron have made can never be understood by anyone on here. Only those close can truely see the immense sacrifice that Sled has made to help the sport and make a LITTLE money. You all know Sled, and if he was in it for the money, he sure has hell would have left this sport a LONG time ago.

As for what should be done, well.....make room for the Sidewinder to dominate. Unfortunatly the sport is going to die in the very near future. If the Sidewinder was accomodated along with the 302 the sport would inevitably be streamlined. People who can truely afford boat racing would be left, the days would be shorter, the race time would be longer, and the sport would be easier to sell and promote for the clubs, NOT APBA. It is NOT APBA's job to promote growth, they were and should put back to the orginization that provides sanction, insurance, and rule governance.

[bill hoctor]

Proposals..are followed by marriage

Right on Matt, A very good retort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[raceright]

One of the neat things about Stock Outboard racing is that there is something for everyone price wise!! If we try to flush all the affordable engines/classes down the toilet we will be in bigger trouble. Keeping the Yamato the MOTOR OF CHOICE in 20ssh and CSH seems paramount to me. It would be nice though to make the 302 the clear choice one of these days!

Peter is right, very few folks can cough up 5 grand for a Sidewinder or $6500 for a Tahatsu. But for those that can, that is great and hopefully growth will be forthcoming and steady!!

I agree with Dean on the current BSH/BSR issue with the ole Hot Rod being out of date. However i thought the Sidewinder by now would have surpassed the ole Hot Rod and the Tate's, Young's Stillwill's, Sutherland's and Sidor's of the racing community would be compelled to update their equipment and run the Sidewinder. But why would they if the new Sidewinder is still 2mph off the ole Hot Rods!! As Reed said, multiple motors in a class and parity is a tough chore to achieve and moderate. Parity to me at it's best only creates 'indecision'.........i imagine we will all find a middle ground somewhere.

And yes Troy, i am being a wise ass...........just keeping with the festive holiday season!!

Matt

I just talked to the sales manager of a motorcycle shop and they sold over 30 dirt bikes this month (say's sales are up over last year) for about $7,000.00
each and that is only one shop and there are three in Riverhead Long Island.
Also sold several Quads and street bikes.. So I submit there is those who have money to buy toys----you guy's just do not want them in your class.

[B1PRORACER]

Don't get me wrong....

Don't get me wrong.... I like the Sidewinder engines! They will be great for stock racing. I am only sticking up for the little guy - as Matt says, "the silent majority"! There certianly is a place for the more expensive and newer engines. There also needs to be a place for affordable racing.
Think of the money it costs for a family to race! How many racing families have you known through the years? Families are what stock racing was all about! I am afraid that people who are coming up with all of these rules aren't seeing the whole picture. They need to think about how their rules will affect the local racing around the country and the average racer.

[nbass]

I did not read elimination of existing engines

As I understand the proposal, the existing engines will find a competitive class with parity rules. That would be great for families that want to buy an older engine to go racing. Sounds like a win-win if the proposal is taken seriously. Otherwise, stock racing should be titled "Antique Racing"

I see way too much me first attitude here. I like boat racing and would probably get my sons back into the sport if I could purchase something inexpensive to go racing win or loose, not really that important. There are lots of other reasons to go boat racing.

[Dave M]

Pat, Not a Fair Comparrison

I just talked to the sales manager of a motorcycle shop and they sold over 30 dirt bikes this month (say's sales are up over last year) for about $7,000.00
each and that is only one shop and there are three in Riverhead Long Island.
Also sold several Quads and street bikes.. So I submit there is those who have money to buy toys----you guy's just do not want them in your class.

You need to step back and think about your comparison. It is not fair to compare dirt bikes, snowmobile, jet ski, or quads to our sport. It is absurd.

Those toys are available nationwide, have established brands, have dealers who stock them, and the big one is they can get financing for one. Ask Same Hemp if he can sell a boat to a newbie and accept $75.00 a month for 15 years....... you see my point ?

There will always be people with more money than you and I, or anyone here. Some choose to race boats, some don't. What sets us apart from dirt bikes, and quads and jet skis ? We offer very little compared to the potential of buying a jet ski, or a quad. They can race the STREET STOCK off the shelf quad most likely every weekend at the local track and get the same experiences as we do, grass roots racing, recognition among a small number of racers and friends, and the ability to brag at work that they won the race last weekend. From here there is a chance for them to pick up a national ride on a pro circuit. We can't offer that.

So I contend money is still very much an issue with the grass roots racing we do. Always has been, and always will be. And then we muck it up even further with so many rules even the inspector and referee have to have a meeting at the races to interpret the rule. You see, more rules add cost to the local racer. Like it or not, that is barrier. If the stock category would step back and look at the core group of boat racers and focus on less than rich class, they would pick up more racers than any other change.

[Matt Dagostino]

As i said.........

Don't get me wrong.... I like the Sidewinder engines! They will be great for stock racing. I am only sticking up for the little guy - as Matt says, "the silent majority"! There certianly is a place for the more expensive and newer engines. There also needs to be a place for affordable racing.
Think of the money it costs for a family to race! How many racing families have you known through the years? Families are what stock racing was all about! I am afraid that people who are coming up with all of these rules aren't seeing the whole picture. They need to think about how their rules will affect the local racing around the country and the average racer.

My point exactly....you just say it better than me Pete
!! And Matt G. i believe the Sidewinder has a place in our sport and support it to a point. I agree that the Yamato 302 and Sidewinder could lead the way into the future if positioned properly!

As for Pat, living out on Long Island is like living in the US Treasuary Building, you guys have all the money .....lol.