SO class reduction proposal, lithium version

[kampkurz]

Look like a real stock engine

As a 25 ssh racer I have had several people say they have a motor like mine at the camp or fishing rig in their garage. How often does that happen with a 302 ? Dean, are you really dead set against one of the few engines that actually looks "stock" compeating or are you trying to get a sidewinder in every garage? Keep 25 alive- it is a class that has close racing and people identify with the black motors..

Well, I have to admit that I liked seeing that (single) Merc 25SSR race last year in region 6. I miss them, but think they are gone as far as I can see from my pit spot. Good luck to all who try and keep us going....forward. KampKurz

[RLR]

Class reduction

Although I agree that 3/4 boat races are boring to the fan, but clubs need the entries, but to me the real issue is that we have so many "local" races that we are diluting the numbers, that are racing.

When we ran Mod, the Illinois club and the IOA always co-ordianated our races, and at most we had 10+ in each class and in many we ended up having eliminations. Numbers of entries drives much of what happens with being able to "sell" a race to sponsors.

I have had discussions with many stock and mod guys in the midwest and always wondered what the heck they were doing when there was a race in Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Indiana on the same weekend. What is up with that? Now I know that some might be an APBA and or NBRA or, or, or. Are we that club centered that we cannot find a weekend when everyone can come.

I noticed the reference to the Title Series and the issues with our decline. Much of what the stock and mod guys are doing is self inflicted when it comes to driving expenses to race by having so many races in close proximity. Someone should take a look at the number of races with multiple clubs that happened this year. Maybe I am wrong, but I can remember a number of weekends, when other races were too close.

You need a benign dicator that says okay everyone gets 3 races that we will not have this or that club racing other than the chosen one. This would give every club a chance to draw the numbers needed for expenses for the weekend and might give you a chance to get the sponsor(if you have one) to fork over a few more bucks, but no sponsor, you have the entries to take care of it. Get a sponsor, help the club keep the entries to pay expenses and tow money and help build the base.

[hydroracer25]

I have had discussions with many stock and mod guys in the midwest and always wondered what the heck they were doing when there was a race in Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Indiana on the same weekend. What is up with that? Now I know that some might be an APBA and or NBRA or, or, or. Are we that club centered that we cannot find a weekend when everyone can come.

I noticed the reference to the Title Series and the issues with our decline. Much of what the stock and mod guys are doing is self inflicted when it comes to driving expenses to race by having so many races in close proximity. Someone should take a look at the number of races with multiple clubs that happened this year. Maybe I am wrong, but I can remember a number of weekends, when other races were too close.

Ray,
That is definitely one way of looking at it and can be valid for PRO to maintain and relatively consistent number of entries at their races over the last 10 years, but how do you attract NEW members with that model?

The other way of looking at it is by having more local races (yes, that means that there will inevitably be races on the same weekend a few times). By having more local races, it makes it a lot easier to "sell" a prospective "newby" that may have just finished a club sponsored Racer School to make the significant investment. In MI we can tell a graduate of Racer School that if they were to make the ~$4000-8000 investment that they can attend 5 events (getting in at least 10 races, maybe more) within no more than 3 hours from their home it makes it a lot more attractive for them to get involved. When you combine that with a few races in OH or IN within 3-4.5 hrs they can get a "full" season of racing in and their investment is put to good use in their eyes.

On the other hand if I have to tell them they can only race 2 weekends in MI and then have to drive to PA, WI or FL to races they will question their investment especially when they really consider the amount of boat/water time per day. Of course the old timers/die-hards like us will most likely still travel to races, but with so many options and obligations for families today, we really feel the "local" race model is the only way to make substainable gains in attracting new members (which when it all boils down - is what we need to continue).

Just wanted to put the "other" perspective out there.

Mark

[csh12M]

Really?

Raced my A SW all season and never missed a heat. even got it running pretty quick after lots of prop searching. haven't even touched the carb or timing.
I think they (Racing Outboards) offered a product that was just what they said for A anyway.
Was looking forward to getting a 15 (B), however, with all this talk of getting rid of them or combining with 20SSH and such, no thanks.

Graham,

I agree my neighbor has both the A Sidewinder and the 15 Sidewinder and they have both been reliable low maintenance motors. The A has been great right out of the box, the 15 is about 2MPH off his Hot Rod. He is very happy with both engines and the product.

You state that this discussion is holding you back from buying a 15CI Sidewinder...really? What class in CBF will it fit into? BSH/BSR don't run in your area anymore do they?

Just curious on your motivations and reasoning because I respect your opinions and effort towards the sport.

Thanks,
Dean
12M

[sponsonhead]

Nationals Participation

Been following all the threads regarding class combinations and realignment with much interest.

Since what I'm getting out of a lot of this goes back to Scott Reed's idea of National vs Local classes....the guys who want to consolidate or realign classes such as 25SSH versus those in the class who feels that their money pays the same and they should have the same rights as everyone else...let's throw another idea out there:

IF the Stock Nationals is indeed our showcase event for what Stock Outboard racing aspires to be, then perhaps one of the criteria when starting to eliminate classes should be Nationals Participation. I think it's great that 25SSH has a strong foothold in the Northeast and some parts of the Midwest...but if we are to really recognize them as a "National" class, how can we seriously consider that if they don't even show up at Nationals? Yes, the Nationals was on the West Coast. But if you aspire to have the same privileges as any other "National" class, then not showing up at Nationals because it's a long way from home seems to shoot your prospects for long term growth in the foot. If we all want the Nationals to be Our Best Show, then a class's participation, or lack thereof, should be one of our metrics for determining a class's viability.

And, don't argue "it's too far for me to go". That excuse doesn't play well with those of us who have gone to many, many Nationals that are a long way from our own little corner of the lower 48.

And before you 25 guys go all medieval on my a$$, I think the same thing can be said about 45SST, DSR and even BSH, provided that class were to remain strictly relegated to Hot Rods and Sidewinders.

Until 45's start showing up at midwest and eastern Stock Nationals, until DSRs start showing up races other than Marathons, and until 25's start supporting races out of their currently established races, all of these classes should be looked at for consolidation, realignment or local class status.

Go ahead and flame away. I'm going back to lurker mode.

R-19

[brian]

Dean and all,

I have two questions:

The first, what do new racers want? ....large fields? To be competitive out of the box? (this will never happen) turn lots of laps? drink beer? travel nationally? Get on a Wheaties box? Go to nascar?

I have one of the MHRA new racers. (Thank you) She won 4 of 5 of her last races (mod). All heats had at least 5 or more boats. (we had lots of help) But she does not like 12 boat fields (Stock). this is just a sample of what one new female racer likes. (For the record, she did crash in an 8 boat field. She has recovered from the fact boat racers crash.)

The second: What about the water and safety? Most lakes the IOA races on will not handle more than 8 boats. I race at Constantine and 8 boats there is a hand full at 75mph. Would we be limiting our lakes? Would we see more crashes with different weights and size boats in the same field? (ever been in a 750h following an 850h) So would we be back to 6-7 boat races with elims and back to a 50 heat schedule in 4 years?

I am just asking questions. I hope these are intelligent questions.

[Graham 18ce]

Hey Dean,
Actually, we run the old Merc B's still, figured i could run with them for boat time and testing, likely be competitve if i get a decent HR or get the SW dialed in. ALso, we have a few guys already rigged and ready to race B Merc Runabout, i'd run against them while up here. maybe even attrach another.
Also, driving to PA or Michigan is in the future, not normally a shortage of HR in this region.
Not likely to jump out and get a SW this winter, bit that last year, but i might be running a HR this year, tried to at the end of the season last year, but it was way off, something wrong to figure out.
Always love the HR one of the best hydro rides i've had, now that i'm in runabouts, B looked amazing and still and all roll up class...can't beat that.

[brian]

My opinion:

I like local races. We need to do better. The MHRA is working hard to get members and local small sponsors. The rest of us can too.

I because of personal issues(I am chubby) have no class I can rule. I race and go to work on Monday. I don't race and go do Letterman and Leno.

I know and race with Nationals drivers and guess what they go to work on Monday too. Work on Monday is the most important part of a race weekend. If I get hurt or my truck dies and I am late or don't show for work that will effect my family the most. Family is always first.

Assume this from the average family racer:

If the perception is a motor or boat under the new program is more competitive naturally the driver is going to want one. Now the driver must decide family or boat/motor. Who will win? It is a lose/lose. Choose the boat=hurt the family=hurt boat racing. Choose the family=unhappy racer=hurt boat racing.

The races are always second to the family.
Says, The third generation racer.

[RLR]

Making my Point

Ray,
That is definitely one way of looking at it and can be valid for PRO to maintain and relatively consistent number of entries at their races over the last 10 years, but how do you attract NEW members with that model?

The other way of looking at it is by having more local races (yes, that means that there will inevitably be races on the same weekend a few times). By having more local races, it makes it a lot easier to "sell" a prospective "newby" that may have just finished a club sponsored Racer School to make the significant investment. In MI we can tell a graduate of Racer School that if they were to make the ~$4000-8000 investment that they can attend 5 events (getting in at least 10 races, maybe more) within no more than 3 hours from their home it makes it a lot more attractive for them to get involved. When you combine that with a few races in OH or IN within 3-4.5 hrs they can get a "full" season of racing in and their investment is put to good use in their eyes.

On the other hand if I have to tell them they can only race 2 weekends in MI and then have to drive to PA, WI or FL to races they will question their investment especially when they really consider the amount of boat/water time per day. Of course the old timers/die-hards like us will most likely still travel to races, but with so many options and obligations for families today, we really feel the "local" race model is the only way to make substainable gains in attracting new members (which when it all boils down - is what we need to continue).

Just wanted to put the "other" perspective out there.

Mark

Mark,
3 or 4 boats on the water in how many classes? Would I invest 5K in a rig to run 10 times against the same 3/4, no way. Give me a consistant 8-10 competitors, with the mix of different drivers on different weekends, I am all about that. Far easier sell than limited number. You can still have your school at all races and when you have that many entries, it gives the newby the feeling that, hey this is a good investment for fun.

No one is saying go off to PA/Fl. There are 4 IOA races per year, you have ??, Ohio/Wisconsin/Illinois have?? You could put together 5/6 one race only weekends and still have 2/4 local races in the year.

I just know when I go to a Sprint Car/Midget race, I count cars as I see them on the track in hot laps, then when verified in time trials, I go, Okay, I will come back to this track, they had a lot of racers and put on a good show.

I agree that we will never be "big" time, but we can be a bigger entity then we are right now, it just takes everyone to quit thinking, I like me first, who do you like?

Ray

[B1PRORACER]

Money$$$$$

Money- think about how different our sport would be if we either had sponsorships or all of the participants were wealthy? Obviously, if you had to be wealthy, many of those who are now racing would be watching from the outside.
At our races, what if the prize money was substantial- then a series (such as NASCAR), could dictate the rules of competition and people would be happy to participate. Depending on your opinion, it is either unfortunate or fortunate that our racing is still a basic, grass roots sport funded by the participants without corporate involvement. Remember, with big corporate funding comes a loss of being able to control the sport that we enjoy.

In other words: right now, we are both the sponsor and the consumer of outboard racing.

Our sport has evolved into the outboard structure that we are all used to. Across the country, outboard races are conducted in essentially the same way. Uniformity is good! Within this structure there are a number of products. Each one of our classes is a product that can be bought by the racer (consumer). A potential racer (and a racer thinking about an additional class) looks over what is available (classes) and either likes what he sees or doesn’t. If there isn’t anything that excites him (her), then he won’t participate- he won’t join us or he won't add another class! Should one of these products (class) be particularly attractive, then we have a large, successful and growing class! The CONSUMERS ARE THE RACERS!

There are many reasons that make certain classes attractive:
-The visual effect of the rig (who wants to trailer something stupid looking to the races?) Has a boat design ever made you want one? Perhaps it is the look or sound of an engine? The way a racing design might just hover above the water through a turn?
-Then perhaps someone wants to race a class that their father once raced. --Maybe there is something nostalgic about a certain class?
-Runabout or hydroplane?
-What is easiest to compete in? What class can I win in?
-Weight restrictions- am I too big (or too small) for a certain class?
-Cost of a class. Can I afford to buy one? What about traveling costs?
-What is raced in my area. Can I race my class anywhere in the country?

[B1PRORACER]

Class consolidation, elimination and combining.

What happens when we change classes, eliminate classes or consolidate classes?
I understand the theory behind a “reduction of classes”. This theory goes something like this: the numbers say that if we have 40 racers and they all enter one class… and we have 10 classes, we will have an average of 4 boats in each of our 10 classes. The “reduction of classes” theory, designed to consolidate the drivers, assumes that if we were to reduce classes to 5 classes, then we could expect to have 5 classes with an average of 8 drivers…. The real scenario of a class reduction doesn’t work like that.

The people that are in our sport have a variety of things that influences there participation. These variables create a matrix of what is different and meaningful to our participants:
1. There are those who are new to the sport and those who are in their last few years of participation.
2. Some people driven to win and others are happy just to participate.
3. Finally, there are those who can easily afford to purchase new equipment and those who are holding on by a shoestring.

How will class consolidation effect those in this matrix?
-Most of those people who have plenty of money (and a strong desire to win), will participate no matter what the changes to our classes are.
-Those who are near the end of their racing careers might not want to "start over".
-Those who lack money might not be able to afford to "start over" in a new class.
-Some of those people who didn’t normally mind riding around in last place (in a 4 boat field) will not enjoy last place in a full field of boats. (This also happens with class combinations -to most of the drivers in the slower class boats).
-Even some of the aggressive drivers don’t like then idea of increasing the competition in their class (consolidation) and might call it a career...

When you consider removing the classes that currently have affordable equipment costs- who are you going to loose? Combining classes- who are you going to loose? What part of the matrix can we afford to loose?

I understand that classes sometimes need to fade way. Classes that are not popular and ones with a lack of interest are not really viable. I also understand that changes create a shock wave that effects more people that we might think.

The stability of our classes and rules allows people to invest in their racing equipment for years to come. Instability causes people to wait and see.....

[raceright]

What happens when we change classes, eliminate classes or consolidate classes?
I understand the theory behind a “reduction of classes”. This theory goes something like this: the numbers say that if we have 40 racers and they all enter one class… and we have 10 classes, we will have an average of 4 boats in each of our 10 classes. The “reduction of classes” theory, designed to consolidate the drivers, assumes that if we were to reduce classes to 5 classes, then we could expect to have 5 classes with an average of 8 drivers…. The real scenario of a class reduction doesn’t work like that.

The people that are in our sport have a variety of things that influences there participation. These variables create a matrix of what is different and meaningful to our participants:
1. There are those who are new to the sport and those who are in their last few years of participation.
2. Some people driven to win and others are happy just to participate.
3. Finally, there are those who can easily afford to purchase new equipment and those who are holding on by a shoestring.

How will class consolidation effect those in this matrix?
-Most of those people who have plenty of money (and a strong desire to win), will participate no matter what the changes to our classes are.
-Those who are near the end of their racing careers might not want to "start over".
-Those who lack money might not be able to afford to "start over" in a new class.
-Some of those people who didn’t normally mind riding around in last place (in a 4 boat field) will not enjoy last place in a full field of boats. (This also happens with class combinations -to most of the drivers in the slower class boats).
-Even some of the aggressive drivers don’t like then idea of increasing the competition in their class (consolidation) and might call it a career...

When you consider removing the classes that currently have affordable equipment costs- who are you going to loose? Combining classes- who are you going to loose? What part of the matrix can we afford to loose?

I understand that classes sometimes need to fade way. Classes that are not popular and ones with a lack of interest are not really viable. I also understand that changes create a shock wave that effects more people that we might think.

The stability of our classes and rules allows people to invest in their racing equipment for years to come. Instability causes people to wait and see.....

Whew you guys are way to heavy for me..

SIMPLE
either you can afford it or you can't
either you are willing to travel or you are not
either you are OK with trying to figure out how to get involved or you are not
SIMPLY PUT EITHER YOU WANT TO OR YOU DO NOT.

But our job as fellow racers is not so much as to pick a class for a new driver
but to make it easier for a new driver to obtain info and equiptment

I submit this is what we do not doooo in Stock Mod or Pro

PW

[ricochet112]

Been following all the threads regarding class combinations and realignment with much interest.

Since what I'm getting out of a lot of this goes back to Scott Reed's idea of National vs Local classes....the guys who want to consolidate or realign classes such as 25SSH versus those in the class who feels that their money pays the same and they should have the same rights as everyone else...let's throw another idea out there:

IF the Stock Nationals is indeed our showcase event for what Stock Outboard racing aspires to be, then perhaps one of the criteria when starting to eliminate classes should be Nationals Participation. I think it's great that 25SSH has a strong foothold in the Northeast and some parts of the Midwest...but if we are to really recognize them as a "National" class, how can we seriously consider that if they don't even show up at Nationals? Yes, the Nationals was on the West Coast. But if you aspire to have the same privileges as any other "National" class, then not showing up at Nationals because it's a long way from home seems to shoot your prospects for long term growth in the foot. If we all want the Nationals to be Our Best Show, then a class's participation, or lack thereof, should be one of our metrics for determining a class's viability.

And, don't argue "it's too far for me to go". That excuse doesn't play well with those of us who have gone to many, many Nationals that are a long way from our own little corner of the lower 48.

And before you 25 guys go all medieval on my a$$, I think the same thing can be said about 45SST, DSR and even BSH, provided that class were to remain strictly relegated to Hot Rods and Sidewinders.

Until 45's start showing up at midwest and eastern Stock Nationals, until DSRs start showing up races other than Marathons, and until 25's start supporting races out of their currently established races, all of these classes should be looked at for consolidation, realignment or local class status.

Go ahead and flame away. I'm going back to lurker mode.

R-19

25SSH has been dead for over 10 years and would have been gone long ago except the rules were removed for removing classes...

[B1PRORACER]

Simple

Whew you guys are way to heavy for me..

SIMPLE
either you can afford it or you can't
either you are willing to travel or you are not
either you are OK with trying to figure out how to get involved or you are not
SIMPLY PUT EITHER YOU WANT TO OR YOU DO NOT.

But our job as fellow racers is not so much as to pick a class for a new driver
but to make it easier for a new driver to obtain info and equiptment

I submit this is what we do not doooo in Stock Mod or Pro

PW
--------------------------------------------------------------------


I have to disagree..... When you go to a local race or even the Nationals, I'm sure you see people who really can't afford to compete. I see it at every single race. Racers with really old boats and engines just going through the motions because they love to race! There are a lot of people who really don't have a prayer of winning. Not all of these people are young people either... but some of them are our future racers! How easy would it be to make things so finacially difficult for these people that they are pushed out? Who do we replace them with, because you have just eliminated 35% of the current racers. Can we afford to loose a lot of people, especially in this economy? I don't know what the answer is, but I know that we can't afford to make a mistake with what we do decide to do!

[Matt Dagostino]

Well said Peter....

I have to disagree..... When you go to a local race or even the Nationals, I'm sure you see people who really can't afford to compete. I see it at every single race. Racers with really old boats and engines just going through the motions because they love to race! There are a lot of people who really don't have a prayer of winning. Not all of these people are young people either... but some of them are our future racers! How easy would it be to make things so finacially difficult for these people that they are pushed out? Who do we replace them with, because you have just eliminated 35% of the current racers. Can we afford to loose a lot of people, especially in this economy? I don't know what the answer is, but I know that we can't afford to make a mistake with what we do decide to do![/QUOTE]



Well said, some might call the less fortunate Stock Outboard racers a big part of the 'silent majority'.

Merry Christmas Pete