Stock members vs leadership

[brian]

Can the members or racers in Stock class vote out a motor? For example the Mercury or sidwinder? Did they ever get a vote other than electing representatives?

I am just asking because I do not know. Don't bite m head off....I might bite back.

[raceright]

Can the members or racers in Stock class vote out a motor? For example the Mercury or sidwinder? Did they ever get a vote other than electing representatives?

I am just asking because I do not know. Don't bite m head off....I might bite back.

Thats why you go to your region meeting and elect someone who represents
the views of your region so he will now champion your Ideas--if that does not work then you get your like thinking region members to elect you and you go to the national meeting and represent your ideas.

Oh and for those who will say I should not have to go all the way to the region meetings--then race how it "is" You are not helping solve the problem just complaining about it (thats what my 87year old mother does)

Pat Wright

[Matt Dagostino]

Brian Brian Brian..................

Can the members or racers in Stock class vote out a motor? For example the Mercury or sidwinder? Did they ever get a vote other than electing representatives?

I am just asking because I do not know. Don't bite m head off....I might bite back.

Hey Brian
Being a schoolteacher i am sure you posted this to test us!! You know how to read i imagine. Lol.

Page 54 of your hardcopy 2010 rulebook (which APBA will be taking away from us in 2011 and making it available on line only! Geesh) Rule 20 Section 2c/d explains it all.

After you read it i expect you to post proving to me you did your homework assignment!

The Captain

[B Walker]

Process for getting a motor or a new class into the Stock Outboard Division of APBA:

Rule 20 Section 2

C. The procedure for approval of engines to be used in existing Stock Outboard classes is as follows:
1) At any time, a party in interest may submit to the SORC a petition for approval of a new engine for use in an existing class. The same
shall be considered submitted upon receipt by the Stock Activity Chairman of the petition and a twenty-five dollar ($25) filing fee (the
fee to be deposited in the Stock Outboard Promotional Fund).
2) The petition for approval shall contain or indicate the following:
a) The class(es) within which the new engine shall be utilized;
b) A description of the new engine including the name of the manufacturer, the displacement of the engine, and the horsepower rating;
c) The estimated speed range for both the hydroplane and runabout class, if applicable;
d) The estimated new cost for the engine;
e) Whether or not modifications of the engine of any kind will be required for racing; (Note: this shall include whether the engine is
submitted as a complete outboard motor, including powerhead and lower-unit, or whether the engine is submitted as an incomplete
motor which shall have an after-market racing foot or lower-unit, etc. installed);
f) The approximate availability date for the engine;
g) The approximate number of engines which are or shall be available for purchase;
h) The expected time period such engine shall be available from the manufacturer;
i) The estimated parts-availability;
j) Whether or not any currently approved engine(s) shall be eliminated from use or shall have any technical changes made; and
k) The name(s) and signature(s) of the individual(s) submitting the petition.
3) Contemporaneously with the filing of the petition, the proposed technical specifications for the engine and, if applicable, for the boats
which shall be utilized with the engine shall be submitted to the SORC.
4) Upon receipt of the petition for approval, the Chairman shall submit the same to the SORC or a committee thereof for consideration
within ten (10) days.
5) The SORC shall thereafter consider the petition. The SORC may approve the engine for a class other than the one(s) proposed in the
petition.
6) The SORC shall consider, among other factors, the following:
a) The availability of the engine and parts;
b) The cost of the engine;
c) The expected speed range for the class(es);
d) Whether or not any existing engines shall be eliminated or obsoleted;
e) The impact upon the existing membership;
f) The potential success of the use of the proposed engine;
g) The extent to which the engine must be modified for racing purposes;
h) Whether or not the engine can reasonably be considered a Stock Outboard engine.
7) The SORC may hold hearings, make requests for information and do any other act reasonably necessary for the proper consideration of
the petition.
8) Once the SORC or a committee thereof has duly considered the petition for approval, the full SORC shall vote for approval or
disapproval of the petition.
9) The SORC may poll the members of the class(es) within which the motor is proposed to be incorporated or the full Stock Outboard
membership for input. However, the final decision for approval or disapproval of the petition shall be made by the SORC.
10) If the SORC approves the petition, the motor shall be eligible for competition 45 (forty-five) days after the date of approval unless such
date falls between May 1 and September 1. In the latter case, eligibility shall commence September 1. The petition shall be deemed
approved if the SORC does not disapprove the petition within forty-five (45) days from the filing of the petition or if the SORC does not
notify the petitioners within the same time period of the date that the decision shall be made.
11) Additionally, the technical specifications and any other rule change shall become effective at the date the proposed motor becomes
eligible for competition.
12) If the SORC disapproves the petition, the Chairman shall notify the petitioners of this decision within fourteen (14) days of the decision.
13) If the petition is disapproved, a petition for approval of the same engine for use in the same proposed class(es) contained in the original
petition shall not be filed within one (1) year from the date of the filing of the original petition.
D. The procedure for establishing a new class within the Stock Outboard Category shall be as follows.
1) At any time, a party in interest may submit to the SORC a petition for approval of a new class. The same shall be considered submitted
upon receipt by the Stock Outboard Activity Chair of the petition and a twenty-five dollar ($25) filing fee (The fee to be deposited in the
Stock Outboard Promotional Fund).
2) A new class is defined as a class which does not currently compete within the Stock Outboard Category and which utilizes a different
18
motor make and hull size than any other class used within the Stock Outboard Category, or which results from a class separation,
whereby one existing class is separated into two different classes.
3) Class combinations, whereby two existing classes are combined into one class, are also governed by this paragraph.
4) The petition for approval shall contain or indicate the following:
a) The name of the new class(es);
b) The motor which shall be utilized, including manufacturer and horsepower rating;
c) The estimated approximate speeds for the new class(es);
d) Whether a propeller-height restriction shall be utilized;
e) Whether an existing Stock Outboard class is proposed to be eliminated with the approval of this new class; and
f) The name(s) and signature(s) of the individual(s) submitting the petition.
5) If an engine is proposed to be utilized in this new class which is not currently utilized within the Stock Outboard Category, then a
petition for approval of a new engine must be filed with the SORC contemporaneously with the filing of the petition for approval of a
new class. All requirements for the filing of this petition under paragraph two (D) above shall also be met; however, in this case, the
new-engine-petition filing fee shall be waived.
6) Upon receipt of the petition for approval, the Chairman shall submit the same to the SORC or committee thereof for consideration within
ten (10) days. The SORC shall thereafter consider the petition.
7) The SORC shall consider, among other factors, the following:
a) The number of existing Stock Outboard classes;
b) Whether the proposed class exists in another APBA category;
c) Whether the proposed class can reasonably be considered a Stock Outboard class;
d) Whether an existing class shall be eliminated;
e) The number of classes the Stock Outboard Category currently contains within the estimated speed range of the proposed class;
f) Whether the new class should more appropriately be incorporated into an existing Stock Outboard class;
g) The interests of the existing membership, and
h) The prospects for success or failure of the proposed class.
8) The SORC may hold hearings, make requests for information and do any other act reasonably necessary for the proper consideration of
the petition.
9) Once the SORC or a committee thereof has duly considered the petition for approval, the full SORC shall vote for approval or
disapproval of the petition.
10) The SORC may poll the Stock Outboard membership for input; however, the final decision for approval or disapproval of the petition
shall be made by the SORC.
11) If the SORC approves the petition, the class shall become eligible for competition 45 (forty-five) days after the date of approval unless
such date falls between May 1 and September 1. In the latter case, eligibility shall commence September 1. The petition shall be deemed
approved if the SORC does not disapprove the petition within forty-five (45) days from the filing of the petition or if the SORC does not
notify the petitioners within the same time period of the date that the decision shall be made.
12) Additionally, any technical specifications or other rule changes necessary for the approval of the proposed class shall become effective at
the date the proposed class becomes eligible for competition.
13) The proposed class shall not become eligible for competition until the same has been presented to and has received the approval of the
APBA Class Review Committee. However, said approval shall not determine the date of eligibility once the SORC has approved the
petition.
14) Upon the date the proposed class shall become eligible for competition, use of the proposed class shall qualify for all of the rights of an
existing class, including eligibility for national high points, national championships and the establishment of competition records. There
shall be no probationary period unless the SORC specifically establishes the same.
15) If the SORC disapproves the petition, the Chairman shall notify the petitioners of this decision within fourteen (14) days of the decision.
16) If the petition is disapproved, a petition for approval of the same class contained in the original petition shall not be filed within one (1)
year from the date of the filing of the original petition.

To answer your question Brian: there is no formal process for removing a motor from APBA Stock Outboard Division.

BW

[brian]

Hey Brian
Being a schoolteacher i am sure you posted this to test us!!(Lucky Guess) You know how to read i imagine. Lol. Read yes...spell not so much...

Page 54 of your hardcopy 2010 rulebook (which APBA will be taking away from us in 2011 and making it available on line only! Geesh) Rule 20 Section 2c/d explains it all.

After you read it i expect you to post proving to me you did your homework assignment! Well on the reading subject....LOL I asked can members vote OUT an engine? Yes you are correct the 20 section c does explain what has happened. Here is the link for people who can not find a hard copy...Click here

The Captain

My lessons....

First, use the online versions of rule books you can use the search features.

Second, Representative democracy's work because they are supposed to be slow and sure in their change. Change is supposed to be hard. The SORC in my opinion have moved too fast and now have problems. They did not poll its members (they had that option, rule 20, c. 9 I can read Matt) on incredibly huge changes and now the rules limit the options of the members. I do not blame the SORC they were not professional politicians. They acted in good faith I believe, but some tragedies are only explained because someone did not have the imagination to predict the future.

On hydroracer we argue a lot.... Did the SORC argue long enough?

Quote,
"The SORC shall consider, among other factors, the following:
a) The availability of the engine and parts;
b) The cost of the engine;
c) The expected speed range for the class(es);
d) Whether or not any existing engines shall be eliminated or obsoleted;
e) The impact upon the existing membership;
f) The potential success of the use of the proposed engine;
g) The extent to which the engine must be modified for racing purposes;
h) Whether or not the engine can reasonably be considered a Stock Outboard engine."

So here is your homework Matt...Can the members vote out a motor in a class or is that 100% the responsibility of SORC? In our US government the people can overturn laws that their representatives passed. (See heath care laws...wishful thinking)

[raceright]

Process for getting a motor or a new class into the Stock Outboard Division of APBA:



To answer your question Brian: there is no formal process for removing a motor from APBA Stock Outboard Division.

BW

My way is better . Because if you get enough commissioners to think alike you can toss Rule 20 Section 2 out and replace with what you choose irregardless what the chairman wants.

[brian]

Thats why you go to your region meeting and elect someone who represents
the views of your region so he will now champion your Ideas--if that does not work then you get your like thinking region members to elect you and you go to the national meeting and represent your ideas.

Oh and for those who will say I should not have to go all the way to the region meetings--then race how it "is" You are not helping solve the problem just complaining about it (thats what my 87year old mother does)

Pat Wright

Pat as soon as I find your moms number I am calling her to tell her what you said. Does anyone have Pat's mom's number? I told you I may bite back. I hope your mother lives forever, so she can keep giving you advice.

I think the world would be a better place if we listened to our mothers more often. (please tell my mom I said this she will get a kick out of it.)

[brian]

My way is better . Because if you get enough commissioners to think alike you can toss Rule 20 Section 2 out and replace with what you choose irregardless what the chairman wants.

LET THE BEST LOBBING FIRM WIN. Wow, maybe I should join a "Tea Party"

[pav225]

Petition

I believe you can Petition to have a motor removed from a class. If the Petition gets signatures from X% of the drivers, the removal of the engine would then go to ballot. The current drivers would then be allowed to VOTE on the removal of a specific motor for a given class.

This is probably a very effective way to protect a strong/popular class with a currently available motor.


Mark Wheeler or Ed Hearn,
Can you comment if my statement true?

- Mike Pavlick

[Shep]

maybe this applies

In by laws

Section 12.7. RULE CHANGE PROCEDURE. For those categories that have not adopted other procedures for rule changes, the following shall be
applicable:
12.7.1. Category Safety Rules shall be determined by the appropriate racing commission without going to ballot of the category members. A safety
rule is defined as a rule to reduce the likelihood of injury or danger, as its primary purpose. All safety rules shall be reviewed by the Safety
Committee and become effective 30 days after passage by the Commission with publication in the Propeller Magazine or posted on the
APBA website. In an emergency, after approval of the Safety Committee, a safety rule can become effective immediately, provided
reasonable notice is given to all participants.
12.7.2. All racing members of record as of October 31, and those of record from October 31 until two weeks before the ballot mailing date, shall be
eligible to vote on category racing and technical rule changes. A technical rule is defined as a rule that pertains to a mechanical art or
science. The rule change ballot will contain one or several of the following:
a) Any technical rule change proposed by at least 30% of all the members registered in the class concerned, but in no event fewer than
four members of any class.
b) Any category rule change proposed by at least 30% of all members possessing registered racing equipment in the category concerned.
c) Any category racing rule or category technical rule change proposed by a majority vote of the racing commission concerned.
12.7.3. All rule change proposals as described in paragraphs (a) and (b) shall be submitted in writing to the National Headquarters not later than
December 1. On or before December 15 of each year, the National Headquarters shall mail the proposed rule changes to the appropriate
Racing Commission to be placed on the ballot. In the event the rule change proposed by the membership received a majority vote, it shall
take precedence over any category rule in conflict.
12.7.4. The Chairmen of the Racing Commissions shall mail to National Headquarters before March 1 all proposed rule changes approved by their
Commissions.
12.7.5. National Headquarters shall mail to each member, in accordance with the category rules, on or before March 15, an official ballot
containing said proposed rule changes, and the ballots to be counted must be returned in the return envelope postmarked no later than
March 29. The results will be tabulated no later than April 5 and shall be published in the next issue of Propeller.
12.7.6. Any official ballot, to be counted, must be postmarked before midnight of the 14th day following the mailing of the ballot. Ballots will be
checked and votes counted as follows: Racing Rules – the vote of all racing members in accordance with the Bylaws; Technical Rule
Changes and rule changes involving a particular class – only the votes of those members registered in the class concerned. A majority of
those voting on any proposition shall be necessary to enact a proposed change.
12.7.7. Except when rules are changed or modified by the Board of Directors, rules may not be changed at any time or in any manner other than as
specified above, except when obvious error is shown in the adoption or amendment of any rule or when, in the opinion of any Racing
Commission, if applicable, the good of the sport is at stake. In such events, the Racing Commission, if applicable, with approval of the
Board of Directors, may change the rules in accordance with the category rules. In the event that the rule change is finalized prior to May
1, the rule change shall take effect 30 days after being finalized. Such rule changes shall be published in the next issue of Propeller and on
the APBA website. In the event that the rule is not finalized prior to May 1, the rule change shall take effect the November 1 following the
approved change.
12.7.8. A rule with a specified freeze duration of up to three years may not be changed during its specified freeze period without the approval of
the Board of Directors.
12.7.9. With the exception of any rule changed or modified by the Board of Directors after having given the appropriate members due notice, or
any rule change pursuant to Bylaw 12.7, any rule changes shall take effect the November 1 following the approved change

[brian]

Maybe this will help:

"The SORC shall have the power to determine that
specific motors may be eliminated or approved for use in other classes with restrictions. Any action under this paragraph shall be made at
the Association’s annual meeting. Any rule in conflict with this paragraph shall be automatically repealed."

So the SORC never ever has to listen to its members once elected. They may lose there job but....what is done is done.

[raceright]

LET THE BEST LOBBING FIRM WIN. Wow, maybe I should join a "Tea Party"

Lobbing is a fact of life--Tea Party, already been to them you need to go to one by you.

[raceright]

In by laws

Section 12.7. RULE CHANGE PROCEDURE. For those categories that have not adopted other procedures for rule changes, the following shall be
applicable:
12.7.1. Category Safety Rules shall be determined by the appropriate racing commission without going to ballot of the category members. A safety
rule is defined as a rule to reduce the likelihood of injury or danger, as its primary purpose. All safety rules shall be reviewed by the Safety
Committee and become effective 30 days after passage by the Commission with publication in the Propeller Magazine or posted on the
APBA website. In an emergency, after approval of the Safety Committee, a safety rule can become effective immediately, provided
reasonable notice is given to all participants.
12.7.2. All racing members of record as of October 31, and those of record from October 31 until two weeks before the ballot mailing date, shall be
eligible to vote on category racing and technical rule changes. A technical rule is defined as a rule that pertains to a mechanical art or
science. The rule change ballot will contain one or several of the following:
a) Any technical rule change proposed by at least 30% of all the members registered in the class concerned, but in no event fewer than
four members of any class.
b) Any category rule change proposed by at least 30% of all members possessing registered racing equipment in the category concerned.
c) Any category racing rule or category technical rule change proposed by a majority vote of the racing commission concerned.
12.7.3. All rule change proposals as described in paragraphs (a) and (b) shall be submitted in writing to the National Headquarters not later than
December 1. On or before December 15 of each year, the National Headquarters shall mail the proposed rule changes to the appropriate
Racing Commission to be placed on the ballot. In the event the rule change proposed by the membership received a majority vote, it shall
take precedence over any category rule in conflict.
12.7.4. The Chairmen of the Racing Commissions shall mail to National Headquarters before March 1 all proposed rule changes approved by their
Commissions.
12.7.5. National Headquarters shall mail to each member, in accordance with the category rules, on or before March 15, an official ballot
containing said proposed rule changes, and the ballots to be counted must be returned in the return envelope postmarked no later than
March 29. The results will be tabulated no later than April 5 and shall be published in the next issue of Propeller.
12.7.6. Any official ballot, to be counted, must be postmarked before midnight of the 14th day following the mailing of the ballot. Ballots will be
checked and votes counted as follows: Racing Rules – the vote of all racing members in accordance with the Bylaws; Technical Rule
Changes and rule changes involving a particular class – only the votes of those members registered in the class concerned. A majority of
those voting on any proposition shall be necessary to enact a proposed change.
12.7.7. Except when rules are changed or modified by the Board of Directors, rules may not be changed at any time or in any manner other than as
specified above, except when obvious error is shown in the adoption or amendment of any rule or when, in the opinion of any Racing
Commission, if applicable, the good of the sport is at stake. In such events, the Racing Commission, if applicable, with approval of the
Board of Directors, may change the rules in accordance with the category rules. In the event that the rule change is finalized prior to May
1, the rule change shall take effect 30 days after being finalized. Such rule changes shall be published in the next issue of Propeller and on
the APBA website. In the event that the rule is not finalized prior to May 1, the rule change shall take effect the November 1 following the
approved change.
12.7.8. A rule with a specified freeze duration of up to three years may not be changed during its specified freeze period without the approval of
the Board of Directors.
12.7.9. With the exception of any rule changed or modified by the Board of Directors after having given the appropriate members due notice, or
any rule change pursuant to Bylaw 12.7, any rule changes shall take effect the November 1 following the approved change

Most rule changes need aproval by the BOD. But they do listen to the commissioners and more often than not respond in a positive way. Again the power is with the elected Commissioners so work the syestem,don't let it work you.

Pat

[brian]

I believe you can Petition to have a motor removed from a class. If the Petition gets signatures from X% of the drivers, the removal of the engine would then go to ballot. The current drivers would then be allowed to VOTE on the removal of a specific motor for a given class.

This is probably a very effective way to protect a strong/popular class with a currently available motor.


Mark Wheeler or Ed Hearn,
Can you comment if my statement true?

- Mike Pavlick

This would be my best guess....where are you Matt?

12.7.2. All racing members of record as of October 31, and those of record from October 31 until two weeks before the ballot mailing date, shall be
eligible to vote on category racing and technical rule changes. A technical rule is defined as a rule that pertains to a mechanical art or
science. The rule change ballot will contain one or several of the following:
a) Any technical rule change proposed by at least 30% of all the members registered in the class concerned, but in no event fewer than
four members of any class.
b) Any category rule change proposed by at least 30% of all members possessing registered racing equipment in the category concerned.
c) Any category racing rule or category technical rule change proposed by a majority vote of the racing commission concerned.
12.7.3. All rule change proposals as described in paragraphs (a) and (b) shall be submitted in writing to the National Headquarters not later than
December 1. On or before December 15 of each year, the National Headquarters shall mail the proposed rule changes to the appropriate
Racing Commission to be placed on the ballot. In the event the rule change proposed by the membership received a majority vote, it shall
take precedence over any category rule in conflict.

So you would need 30% of all registered stock members or the class under the stock?

[Shep]

and this too

2010 RACING RULES FOR MODIFIED OUTBOARD, STOCK OUTBOARD
AND PROFESSIONAL RACING OUTBOARD
RULE 1 • GENERAL
1. Only a regular member club of the APBA may conduct APBA races.
2. In order to be eligible to compete in the races sanctioned by the APBA an individual must:
A. Be a racing member in good standing of the APBA.
B. Be a member in good standing of a member club of the APBA. (Participants in special events are exempt from this requirement.)
C. Register with the APBA National Headquarters for the class or category in which they intend to compete.
D. Show their current APBA membership card and club membership card (if required) to the local registration official when filing their entry
or checking in at a regatta. Regardless of the class entered, the motor manufacturer, piston displacement and the class entered must be
clearly specified on the entry blank filed at the regatta.
E. Display an official racing number and meet all technical requirements of the class entered.
3. Racing for MO, PRO and SO classes shall be governed by the By-Laws of APBA. All rule changes shall be governed by By-Law Article XII,
Section 12.7.