Combining STOCK, MOD & PRO

[mercguy]

but why??

Combining stock/mod makes the most sense to me. Region 10 races only combined races with stock/mod/pro and sometimes opc. This is the only way we have ever raced. I can see where doing all three would be too much on a national scale (pro has it's own title series and are doing quite well). If we combined the stock and mods i can see it benefiting both categories in the long haul. Us being secluded up in the NW we have to run our races like this, but our entries have always remained high for that reason. See 270 total entries for 2 days at lake lawrence with no out or region entry.

Dana is right, we are outboards. Just like the inboards are inboards. Leave pro but combine stock/mod into one full outboard category. I think baby steps are in order though. This year see if we (SORC) can get our stock classes in order and back to a ABCD format. We can then revisit combination of categories when the time is right.

whats the point in combining stock and mod, when Reg10 (example) has no problem running stock/mod and PRO all together each weekend. Each category has its benefits, etc. Let's worry about the bigger picture FIRST (entrys, etc), before we start talking about combining categories. The MOD category is doing just fine on its own. The idea of combining DSH and DMH in the same heat creates many problems.........people need to also think about the scorers and inspectors, before throwing out random ideas.........keep stock boats running against stock boats.........

PS: members of the MORC have more technical of the inner workings, etc of the motors they have in their category (and should), as it is a "tinkerers
category...............stock commission is more about direct competition with the "same" motor............so, you would have to have quite a large commission, if you were to combine the categories and don't see that as being a reality...........you would still have separate "sides"............although a benfit for the MORC would be the added available "funds" the SORC has........

[raceright]

I happened to be cleaning out some files today and found some information that might pertain to this thread. Follows is a very successful step-up chart that AOF (original) uses to this day, implementing stock; mod, pro combinations. I am not saying this is your answer, or that it is better than what you can come up with, I am just saying it works, so could be a good format to look at, if nothing else. This chart was devised by some very knowledgeable people, like RC Hawie, Dave Jones, Larry McAfee, Dudley Malone, Kampen, Giles, VanOver, John Snell, Dan Parker, Philip DiFebo, Howie Pickerall, and so many others as I am sure both Doc Millers and the Masons were also involved.
The chart was devised to make sure classes had enough boats, and maintain the AOF philosophy of ‘run what you brung.” I believe, if I remember correctly, that when there were boats that were stepped-up that the classes for the day had to be approved by the drivers. The step up chart was allowed at the nationals, but only in rare cases when points would not otherwise count.
ALL STOCK ENGINES were always allowed to step up to the equivalent mod class. In other words, an engine such as Yamato 102 could always step up to the C Mod class where a modified Y102 was used.
Also note that this chart is a little out of date. I am told that at the Original AOF national meeting, the tech committee will be updating this year to add the new engines and some that have become popular or left off the chart.
The step up chart took years of study. When I was the Executive Director, I was asked to keep extensive speed records and the speeds of all classes were taken into consideration when combining stock/mod/pro. Speed was one of the main factors in the combos, but safety also had a part. Also of note is that capsule boats were not allowed to run with non-capsuled boats.
Here is the chart, which may not be the newest updated chart: And also, some of the classes are called different names, and mod is super stock , but you should get the idea:

Runabouts:
O to A
ASS to BSS and B1
B1 to C
80Mod to B1
C to D SS
C, D, D SS to E
CSS, D, DSS E to SE
125 cc to B SS , B1 and 80 M
SE, 250 cc, 350cc to 500

Hydro
O to A
A to B, B1 and Y80
B to B1
B to C
B1 to C
B1 to 102 S
Y80 to A
80M to B1, C
25XS to Y102s, B1 80M
C to D ss
C, D SS to E
D to D SS E, SE
125 cc to C
SE to 250 cc
250cc, 350cc, 500 cc, 700cc to 1100 cc

Again, you would probably have to know what engines were allowed originally in each of the classes. Also, this chart is not always used, but is nice when someone shows up and wants to run. It can be a stepping stone to a new combined division (stock/mod/pro) at a later date. I was told once that the theory was that if a stepped up engine ran faster than the engine lower on the step up chart, then the bigger guys had some work to do, or the tech committee did.
I believe that the main author was either RC Hawie or Dave Jones. Both are just a phone call away. If they successfully did this for AOF, why couldn't they help for APBA? Worth a try.

Don't know what ya trying to say here Connie,but I got tired just reading all those classes---wheeeew. Need to not only think about existing drivers but also New Ones---oh and the comment previously made about keep selling to the same customers---Na good ones will always be there till they pass on.
Not so good ones should be tossed to the curb there to much of a liability.

[YankeeRacing]

Ok, Pat, I will shorten it:
The genius' I mentioned took stock, mod, and pro and made one division.
They took 75 stock classes, 50 mod classes, and 25 pro classes and reduced everything to about 22 classes total.

Yeah, there might be a stock, mod, and pro engine in one race, but if there is enough beer in the pits for after the races, and everyone has a good time, no one really cares in the end.

[dholt]

Darren,

With all due respect, and fully aware of the issues in SO, Mod is not doing "just fine". Look at the participation totals. They are anemic in FAH, FAR, BMR, CMR, 25MH and to a fair degree...AMH and AMR.

How many times has AMR, AMH, 25MH and BMR run out there with you? How many of those boats do you have? How many of those rigs are truly modified and not stock rigs stepping up?

The point of combining the categories is to weed out the weak and take the mediocre classes of both categories and make fewer, stronger class.

We have been running combined events out here for years. Sure, it can be done...but it can be done better.

And as I've said before...if what SO/Mod is currently doing is working so well, why are the numbers not trending upward?

My idea of "good" is 9-12 boats at each class during a weekend race. Since when are consistent races of 3-4 boats acceptable? Or 12 boats existing Nationally? Is that the standard we're prepared to call fine and dandy?

[mercguy]

Darren,

With all due respect, and fully aware of the issues in SO, Mod is not doing "just fine". Look at the participation totals. They are anemic in FAH, FAR, BMR, CMR, 25MH and to a fair degree...AMH and AMR.

How many times has AMR, AMH, 25MH and BMR run out there with you? How many of those boats do you have? How many of those rigs are truly modified and not stock rigs stepping up?

The point of combining the categories is to weed out the weak and take the mediocre classes of both categories and make fewer, stronger class.

We have been running combined events out here for years. Sure, it can be done...but it can be done better.

And as I've said before...if what SO/Mod is currently doing is working so well, why are the numbers not trending upward?

My idea of "good" is 9-12 boats at each class during a weekend race. Since when are consistent races of 3-4 boats acceptable? Or 12 boats existing Nationally? Is that the standard we're prepared to call fine and dandy?

Dana, I see the point you are making. Unfortunately most of the classes you have listed were never ran out here on the West Coast, except for the Formula A classes. Those classes are prolly not ran, due to the ability of running the OMC in about a half dozen other classes. I do believe BMR and CMR are raced in Reg 11 though, CMR............well, I have one and am trying to promote the class (might take a little while, as the boat keeps pitching me out....LOL!) . Right now, the biggest MOD classes are raced in Reg 10......CMH/DMH/FEH and occassionally FER. Those are the biggest mod classes pretty much. You can say the Amod stuff (and 25MH) is not ran out here, but either is the STOCK Hot Rod stuff or 25 either, those classes seem to be REGIONALLY directed.....East Coast..........if we eliminated classes that are run only "regionally", would that hurt the conducting clubs? I agree 3-4 boat races are not ideal by any means, but sometimes that gets new racers involved, as some are frightened to enter a class than has 12 boats and that gives them a chance. What I have discovered out here (in Reg10), that the majority of the racers race classes where NEW and available equipment (and motors) is readily available. Pretty much all the CSH's out here race 302's and a growing amount of the DSH class have Tohatsu's. CMH is dominated by the 302 also and this class will continue to grow.

on the other hand, see a trend of more racers going to STOCK, due to most not wanting (or have the ability) to "really" modify their engines............some try, but give up, do to not being very mechanically inclined, which seems to be a trend in other places also, not just boat racing.

be it as it may, stock/mod and pro are on the schedule at most all of our races (except for ones that might have noise limitations)..........and seem to work just fine........

PS: my statement of MOD doing just fine should have been more directed towards motors, etc. There are quite a few different motors of choice you can run in MOD in various classes and really have no PARITY issues..........unlike what STOCK seems to be claming, etc.

PSS: YES, I do race both categories, and YES, I completely agree with your STOCK OUTBOARD plan.............make it happen!!! But, let's not bite off more than one can chew all at one time..........

[Jack Stotts]

While considering the blending of Stock and Mod, keep in mind that some venues do not allow Mods to run because of noise considerations. This possibly could exclude some classes many of which may have resulted from combining. The issue can be handeled but will impact attendance/participation and in fact will offend some. Just another factor. Jack

[Ron Hill]

I happened to be cleaning out some files today and found some information that might pertain to this thread. Follows is a very successful step-up chart that AOF (original) uses to this day, implementing stock; mod, pro combinations. I am not saying this is your answer, or that it is better than what you can come up with, I am just saying it works, so could be a good format to look at, if nothing else. This chart was devised by some very knowledgeable people, like RC Hawie, Dave Jones, Larry McAfee, Dudley Malone, Kampen, Giles, VanOver, John Snell, Dan Parker, Philip DiFebo, Howie Pickerall, and so many others as I am sure both Doc Millers and the Masons were also involved.
The chart was devised to make sure classes had enough boats, and maintain the AOF philosophy of ‘run what you brung.” I believe, if I remember correctly, that when there were boats that were stepped-up that the classes for the day had to be approved by the drivers. The step up chart was allowed at the nationals, but only in rare cases when points would not otherwise count.
ALL STOCK ENGINES were always allowed to step up to the equivalent mod class. In other words, an engine such as Yamato 102 could always step up to the C Mod class where a modified Y102 was used.
Also note that this chart is a little out of date. I am told that at the Original AOF national meeting, the tech committee will be updating this year to add the new engines and some that have become popular or left off the chart.
The step up chart took years of study. When I was the Executive Director, I was asked to keep extensive speed records and the speeds of all classes were taken into consideration when combining stock/mod/pro. Speed was one of the main factors in the combos, but safety also had a part. Also of note is that capsule boats were not allowed to run with non-capsuled boats.
Here is the chart, which may not be the newest updated chart: And also, some of the classes are called different names, and mod is super stock , but you should get the idea:

Runabouts:
O to A
ASS to BSS and B1
B1 to C
80Mod to B1
C to D SS
C, D, D SS to E
CSS, D, DSS E to SE
125 cc to B SS , B1 and 80 M
SE, 250 cc, 350cc to 500

Hydro
O to A
A to B, B1 and Y80
B to B1
B to C
B1 to C
B1 to 102 S
Y80 to A
80M to B1, C
25XS to Y102s, B1 80M
C to D ss
C, D SS to E
D to D SS E, SE
125 cc to C
SE to 250 cc
250cc, 350cc, 500 cc, 700cc to 1100 cc

Again, you would probably have to know what engines were allowed originally in each of the classes. Also, this chart is not always used, but is nice when someone shows up and wants to run. It can be a stepping stone to a new combined division (stock/mod/pro) at a later date. I was told once that the theory was that if a stepped up engine ran faster than the engine lower on the step up chart, then the bigger guys had some work to do, or the tech committee did.
I believe that the main author was either RC Hawie or Dave Jones. Both are just a phone call away. If they successfully did this for AOF, why couldn't they help for APBA? Worth a try.

I like GROUPS, like the above for SoCal racing. You could allow points to be awarded for each class than runs... One boat in class 255 CC , 400 ponts...he won...Two boat winner get 800.

It seems three heat races like DePue Races might give you more bang for your buck, too.

If a class has 12 boats, it can stand alone, if not cmbine. I talked to a guy today that quit racing, when the Yamato displaced the 30-H. He had two boats, three 30-H's and a trailer. But quit before he'd buy a Yamato.

Here's a picture of my brother 1949 "A" Pumper. My brother won the Hearst Regatta, they started 32 "A" Hydros, five laps, single bouy turns. If you ran ten laps, it would be a marathon, and you could run more than 12 boats.....What proof do we have than 12 boats are safer than 16???

Personally, I don't want to see Mod and Stock joined, I would favor J and AXS becoming a Stock class.

[doc 35-0]

We go to a few races that have three races for two. These seemed to be four to five boats the first day and drops down a few as the attrition hits drivers and motors. I am concern, if we combine a few classes that the actual entries will go down and the revenue for the events will drop as well. Yes twelve boat heats are exciting and takes less time to run, but at the end of the day, we have to pay for all that fun. We just bought an A motor, we would not like to combine the AX with the A, although it is only three miles faster. The A class has been a hoot to watch and the best race of the day, that's why we are jumping in, to mix it up with a large field.

[sam]

Makes sense when there are 7 boats, but not when there are only 3

[raceright]

Reading and reading--this type of thread will be repeated again and again every few years...No one really wants to do anything that will open up outboard racing to John Q public.--- for Power boat growth ya just can not only depend on your fellow racer for info to enter our sport.
Going from one category to another and back and forth yes fellow racer info is about the only way. New people need more than that.
Just my "opinion"
Pat Wright

[Dave M]

Just Once...

Just one time if someone could get a combo in....

Darren, we don't see eye to eye, that is obvious. I will sill simply agree to diasgree with everything you say.

Why is that some folks from the west coast want to change the way points are tallied for high points, and how the Hall of Champion points are, make it more towards how many boats you race against. Yet when someone wants to combine classes to make this happen, some people simply are up in arms about "NOT MY CLASS"

Dana's plan does not eliminate anything, it simply combines thems. If you stop and think about it Darren, if the categories combined, you might grow in entries. I think the plan would still allow step -ups like it currently does. I hope that would not go away.

And if someone wants to run in a 3 boat race becasue they are scared to race against 10 or 12 boats, then they probably shouldn't be allowed to race boats in a full field to begin with. That kind of fear is not safe for anyone out there. It is called panic.

Lubby, I understand your question. True boat racers will stay with the change. We have been worried about "ourselves" for the last 100 years in APBA, look where we are at now... in any region at any race except the well known ones, they are lucky to get 30 - 75 trailers. We now consider 100 entries a big turn out... 100 entries provides for a lot of 3 - 5 boat races. Some are full, but most won't be. Combine the classes you have full fields, you get a lot of testing time becasue you don't need to race from 9:00 AM until dark and then finish up Saturday's schedule on Sunday morning and then go to one heat racing for Sunday... that plain sucks no matter what.

If I appear to come off as an ahole, sorry, but I have been in this sport longer than a lot of people. My family raced long before modified was even a category. I have seen the good old days, and the bad days. I have seen a lot of people come and go. What I have not seen is sustainable growth in the last 25 years. It does not matter who you piss off at this point, the time to change is now, becasue I for one don't want to see this sport die.

[blueskyracer]

Just one time if someone could get a combo in....



A
Lubby, I understand your question. True boat racers will stay with the change. We have been worried about "ourselves" for the last 100 years in APBA, look where we are at now... in any region at any race except the well known ones, they are lucky to get 30 - 75 trailers. We now consider 100 entries a big turn out... 100 entries provides for a lot of 3 - 5 boat races. Some are full, but most won't be. Combine the classes you have full fields, you get a lot of testing time becasue you don't need to race from 9:00 AM until dark and then finish up Saturday's schedule on Sunday morning and then go to one heat racing for Sunday... that plain sucks no matter what.

If I appear to come off as an ahole, sorry, but I have been in this sport longer than a lot of people. My family raced long before modified was even a category. I have seen the good old days, and the bad days. I have seen a lot of people come and go. What I have not seen is sustainable growth in the last 25 years. It does not matter who you piss off at this point, the time to change is now, becasue I for one don't want to see this sport die.

Dave, well said. All this year we have had to combine classes due to the economy effecting turnout and it has worked great.

It is not a great feeling when you get passed by a stocker but it just means you have some work to do.

[Mike Beegle]

Whats the name of the new category name gonna be: Stockafied ?

[raceright]

Why not have a vote as to combining stock and mod----

[B Walker]

Where does marathon fit into this?

BW