Combining STOCK, MOD & PRO

[Big Don]

Since Bill want to discuss combining categories I figured we should start a new thread so the other one does not get out of control.

I’ll start it just to get the conversations going. Here are my thoughts…

Will it happen? Maybe someday but I think we need to get our own house in order before we go trying to do something that big.

Plus who says the Mod’s and Pro’s want us, they probably think we are a bunch of idiots and why would they want our issues. Maybe their happy with what they are doing and don't want us? I have not seen any from those two categories on here begging us to join to make one big happy category.

The MOD’s are most likely sitting back to see what we mess up so they can steal half our drivers.

[Matt Dagostino]

Destiny..............

I’ll start it just to get the conversations going. Here are my thoughts…

Will it happen? Maybe someday but I think we need to get our own house in order before we go trying to do something that big.

The MOD’s are most likely sitting back to see what we mess up so they can steal half our drivers.

Big Don
Like i said before, Stocks and Mod's are almost combined now...........the PRO's have become so specialized them are destined to have 10 series races a year and that will be about it for them!! Their equipment is so exotic and specialized they are almost out of our discussion i guess.

I can't remember the year but when we all decided to merge the Stock and MOD Nationals that was the first big step tword becoming one!! Then if you recall a lot of the guys began crossing over and we then transformed our local races into joint Stock/MOD events..........so it seems to me the next logical step is to formally merge ONE DAY into one cataglory and turn our 400 Stock members and 200 or so MOD members and have one stronger cataglory!!

Of course the political mentality would have to somehow come together. I suspect that will happen in the future when both cataglories are soooo weak that they can't stand on there own.

Sounds like a good plan............i vote that you be the Chairman and make it all come together!

Matt
Region 4 Commissioner

[Brian10s]

The MOD’s are most likely sitting back to see what we mess up so they can steal half our drivers.

There is 1/2 the problem with combining - the us vs them issue. Now, I am not picking on Don's slip of the keyboard, as I think I understand what he meant but this is a perfect example. On the beach, there is no (or at least very little) us vs them, Stock vs Mod. It is just a bunch of racers doing what they enjoy. However, when we get to the "political beach", it is about, us vs them. Anyone who can't or doesn't see that right from the start is kidding themselves.

The other half of the issue with combining is there are several differences in the basic way the 2 categories operate. I am not saying one is better or worse but we need to point out the differences in order to start the discussion. The SORC rules the land on all rule changes. The MORC is more the gatekeeper for rule changes (except safety) but the class drivers have the final say. Up until the last few years, Stock was basically one motor per class (yes I know we had the 20H & hot rod, 102 & 30H, etc, but one motor was coming in and the other was going out - you get my point). Mod seems to be more open to several engines in a class.

These are just a couple but they seem to hit the heart of both categories.

[Dave M]

Two Maybe, never all Three

I don't think Pro should even be on the table for discussion. They saw the light and have moved towards it. They have full fields and can sell the program.

Mod and Stock.. they could combine, but it is not going to be easy. The biggest obstacle you will run into is the same old argument. Mods are Mods, they are in theory, the stock counterpart with pipes and some other modifications. We can't put porting back into an engine, we can't undo what is done to these engines. So the logical thought process should lead you to stock joining Mod and everyone can run Mod. You can modify any of the current Stock engines to run in Mod. That is very logical in my opinion.

However, you will have a lot of folks who swear up and down that stock can survive and grow and they don't want any part of the dirty greasy loud Mod's.

This leads me to believe if you want this to work, you need a platform that combines the classes into one. Meaning A/B/C/D/E/FE/25. That is seven hydro classes and 7 runabout classes. In reality this would be most likley only 5 or six. It is very doable with 14 classes a day. This is basically the NBRA class structure. It is somewhat different but basically the same. So Find a way to have these classes, and combine the stocks and mods in each class. Scored TOGETHER as one big happy family.

Step-Up - Will be allowed. You want to run a D stocker in FEH, go for it. But your better fit would be D Mod Hydro (40CI). The D Stockers can run in this class, and also step up into EMH (44CI).

As far as the A stock stuff goes, one is enough. Let them all run together.

We can run J's or prolly a better named class Novice. Don't change their rules for the most part. This adds on two classes. Combine the J/AXS. If your child is not ready for A, then keep them in J until they are 16. or let them run in A at 14 (they can in Mod) if they are ready, or to big for J.

Sometimes simple works folks. I think a lot of people are way over thinking this deal. And this is why the categories are where they are.

[DiGia54D]

Reg 1 has always been stock/Mod/Pro... We only have a couple of 250cch and been building up the 125cch. This combo might work in the Midwest because theres more pro's out that way. Yes they all came to Hartford, CT but that was a title series race.

[Big Don]

There is 1/2 the problem with combining - the us vs them issue. Now, I am not picking on Don's slip of the keyboard, as I think I understand what he ment but this is a perfect example. On the beach, there is no (or at least very little) us vs them, Stock vs Mod. It is just a bunch of racers doing what they enjoy. However, when we get to the "political beach", it is about, us vs them. Anyone who can't or doesn't see that right from the start is kidding themselves.

The other half of the issue with combining is there are several differences in the basic way the 2 categories operate. I am not saying one is better or worse but we need to point out the differences in order to start the discussion. The SORC rules the land on all rule changes. The MORC is more the gatekeeper for rule changes (except safety) but the class drivers have the final say. Up until the last few years, Stock was basically one motor per class (yes I know we had the 20H & hot rod, 102 & 30H, etc, but one motor was coming in and the other was going out - you get my point). Mod seems to be more open to several engines in a class.

These are just a couple but they seem to hit the heart of both categories.

Brain I agree with you….I was just trying to get the thread going and get someone a little riled….ok specifically Pavlick. It’s not fair that I just harass Mike, I need to give Bill some love also.

We do need to stop the US vs. THEM mentality. That is the biggest problem in that other thread.

[BP125V]

Big Don

Your kid has to correct your spelling and now I have to teach you how to read!

Combine J/Stock/Mod. In your post you left out J but included PRO. That is not what I mentioned in my other post nor do I think it will work. PRO is too unique to combine.

Just so Big Don understands, I'll type it again. J/Stock/Mod.

Bill

[Big Don]

So the question is where do we start? I think we have some very bright people and we can make a plan.

Start working on this with the goal to be in 5 years have it implemented.

1 category (SO, MOD, J) I left pro out because I don’t know enough about them and I figured with just these three it might be easier. Plus we would have to convince all three

Chairman and commission are on a 3 year terms to give stability.

These are estimate speeds I’m not sure how fast some of these classes really go. And call the new classes whatever you want.

JH 43.5 MPH – Merc & OMC but make no changes to the OMC rules, maybe lower another ¼ inch and put a tuck rule in
JR 41 MPH – Merc & OMC but make no changes to the OMC rules, maybe lower another ¼ inch and put a tuck rule in
AXH 53 MPH - Merc & OMC but make no changes to the OMC rules
AXR 50 MPH - Merc & OMC but make no changes to the OMC rules
FAH 58 MPH - with the current OMC’s & the A sidewinder…OMC’s on stock towers and stock OMC pipes with MOD rules on block…
FAR 54 MPH - with the current OMC’s & the A sidewinder…OMC’s on stock towers and pipes with MOD rules on block…
AMH 65 MPH – current engine – place for the Hotrod 15…I wonder if they can put pipes on the sidewinder? If not need to rethink
AMR 61 MPH - current engine – place for the Hotrod 15…I wonder if they can put pipes on the sidewinder? If not need to rethink.
BMH 70 MPH – Current Yamato 20 would have a home & 25 stock & Mod.
BMR 67 MPH - Current Yamato 20 would have a home & 25 stock & Mod. 25MH – current engine and the stock 25
CSH 67 MPH – 102 & 302
CSR 64 MPH – 102, 302 25XS
DMH 79MPH – DSH
DMR 70 MPH – DSR

Do we need EMH????? DO we need AX as a separate class or do we just make AX & FA one?

One sidewinder engine goes away under this plan. But maybe you would sell more engines in just two classes.

I would really like to have 12 classes…

Ok this is what I came up with in 15 minutes….I'm sure I missed something

[BP125V]

classes?

Don,

I do not know that we would need to get down to 12 classes. I think there could be some elimination/combination of classes at the slower/smaller end of the scale (AX, A stock, Formula A are examples) but I could see us leaving DMR, DMH, DSH, DSR, for instance, as individual classes.

I think what is most important at this point is having all three categories working towards the same goals and not overlapping class speeds and sizes as much as we currently do.

Like Dana posted on another thread, make it a Sportsman Outboard category and within it you would have stock and modified divisions. Mod classes run as Mod classes, Stock as Stock but with oversight from one committee.

Bill

[Brian10s]

We do need to stop the US vs. THEM mentality. That is the biggest problem in that other thread.

That is the biggest issue. It has been eliminated in the pits but how do we eliminate it at the National Meeting?

So the question is where do we start? I think we have some very bright people and we can make a plan.

Start working on this with the goal to be in 5 years have it implemented.

JH 43.5 MPH – Merc & OMC but make no changes to the OMC rules, maybe lower another ¼ inch and put a tuck rule in
JR 41 MPH – Merc & OMC but make no changes to the OMC rules, maybe lower another ¼ inch and put a tuck rule in
AXH 53 MPH - Merc & OMC but make no changes to the OMC rules
AXR 50 MPH - Merc & OMC but make no changes to the OMC rules
FAH 58 MPH - with the current OMC’s & the A sidewinder…OMC’s on stock towers and stock OMC pipes with MOD rules on block…
FAR 54 MPH - with the current OMC’s & the A sidewinder…OMC’s on stock towers and pipes with MOD rules on block…
AMH 65 MPH – current engine – place for the Hotrod 15…I wonder if they can put pipes on the sidewinder? If not need to rethink
AMR 61 MPH - current engine – place for the Hotrod 15…I wonder if they can put pipes on the sidewinder? If not need to rethink.
BMH 70 MPH – Current Yamato 20 would have a home & 25 stock & Mod.
BMR 67 MPH - Current Yamato 20 would have a home & 25 stock & Mod. 25MH – current engine and the stock 25
CSH 67 MPH – 102 & 302
CSR 64 MPH – 102, 302 25XS
DMH 79MPH – DSH
DMR 70 MPH – DSR

Do we need EMH????? DO we need AX as a separate class or do we just make AX & FA one?

One sidewinder engine goes away under this plan. But maybe you would sell more engines in just two classes.

Leave the J's out for a second (because realisticly, we would really have to prove that we have our S*** together before the BOD even considers giving them up).

The only current "Stock" motor without a home in Mod currently is the A Sidewinder. The only current "Stock" class without a home is the 25SSH class (and that was discussed in the other thread). The only other Stock engine/ class combo that can't run in their Brother Mod class is the D Tohatsu (and that is a whole different issue). So, if everyone wanted to go Mod, that could be done this weekend.

[Big Don]

Don,

I do not know that we would need to get down to 12 classes. I think there could be some elimination/combination of classes at the slower/smaller end of the scale (AX, A stock, Formula A are examples) but I could see us leaving DMR, DMH, DSH, DSR, for instance, as individual classes.

I think what is most important at this point is having all three categories working towards the same goals and not overlapping class speeds and sizes as much as we currently do.

Like Dana posted on another thread, make it a Sportsman Outboard category and within it you would have stock and modified divisions. Mod classes run as Mod classes, Stock as Stock but with oversight from one committee.

Bill

Oh yea I can see why would leave DSR on it's own because there is three of them that run short course...

And the reason for 12 is because there will be elims then and we won't have time

[Matt Dagostino]

Good one!!

[QUOTE=Big Don;167939]Oh yea I can see why would leave DSR on it's own because there is three of them that run short course...


Although classes and class rules will need to be 'tweaked'...............this thread addresses the future of kneeldown outboard racing as we know it. I don't believe either cataglory will ever return to the 'good ole days' of the 1980's on their own. This is a progressive, forward thinking topic.

15-18 classes seems to be a good number in my view. A 36-40 heat day is well within reason and takes into account the people that matter the most........THE DRIVERS!!! Until the day comes when 'sponsors' start paying all our expenses and paying big prize money i think the focus needs to be the local clubs and the DRIVERS need to be job one!!

Although this thread is just 'banter' for now, i predict in a few years it will be for real!!

Matt
ps...............Big Don, you forgot CMH. You don't want to piss off the 13-V

[Big Don]

Someone one is going to be mad so I might as well piss off my friends.

I was really hoping he would sell me his 102 power heads and I could turn them back into stock engines.

Bill Pavlick hurry up and respond I want to harass you today.

[reed28n]

Combine Stock and Mod

We duplicate too many things. Consolidate efforts. Let the local clubs list the classes they want to race at their site.

There is more expense to our membership keeping the two seperate.

[Haüenstein]

As part of a team that is most definitely both US and THEM, I personally believe Stock and MOD should be combined, but Don rightly points out that MOD is poised to have a pretty sizable membership increase over the next few seasons as Stock either a) phases out popular motors or b) becomes incredibly convoluted in an attempt to placate all members, achieve parity, etc.

A great place to start would be to extend the project of streamlining and removing redundancies from the rulebook(s) to the Super Category at large (it looks like Scott Reed just posted something to this effect). By this I mean instituting the same high-point system, combining Hall of Champions qualifying, and start combining classes—perhaps with an NBRA-style of formulaic class combination. Dave M is pretty right on the money with his remarks in that regard. The separate MOD and Stock technical committees can keep their own transom heights, of course.

Even if we keep our "national" classes the same, we can change the way local races are run, by rule, to empower the clubs (see the "Future Is Now" thread for some ideas on that) and make the race day schedule tighter and "more" "profitable." The minimums for high points can be left the same, scored separately for combined races, as many others have stated.

I lost my train of thought.