RULE CHANGE BALLOT #'s 3/4/6

[STEVE FRENCH]

Just a few thoughts.......

#3. I understand the 25MOD/400cc class LOOKS strong enough to stand alone as of the end of last season, but it is still a region 6 class as far as numbers......outside of this area you will have a hard time put'n a class together.
I have really enjoyed running with the "B" drivers even though I have yet to see a OMC/MERC-22 walk away with a win........Close, but Lady Luck had to be on yer side and a great start to come close to stay'n up front......
If my verbal "jabs" at the Yamato's "offened" anyone.........

#4 "To provide parity"....? ......50 !!!!! LBS
The current weight is what keeps us even CLOSE to compete'n with you folks
(Might as well stand on dock and drop a 50 LB anchor through the bottom of rig )

With X# rigs needed for for National/Divisional points,........And most sites want'n 5 rigs or combine......seems like you would want to keep all the rigs you could?

Yamato Drivers way out number the hand full of OMC-MERC-HOT ROD drivers in this class and you WILL easily "BOOT" us out with either of these proposals......
"BE CAREFULL WHAT YOU WISH FOR"..................

#6 Since I own/race both motors I'm not sure on this one......Seems last year the Mercs came back pretty good..........A couple races were I thought I had a good shot at 25MOD, I saw several Mercs walk away from my OMC.
I would hope the gains would be worth the cost?.....Whats it run to get a crank worked/beveled today?----who can do it?.....What's the turn around time If ya deside to tear down and even try this?.....Someone must of made it work to propose it and are ya will'n to share the info/results with the rest of the class?

Any other thought?

19P SEEEE YAAAAAA.........in my wake........?

[raceboat61-S]

I agree with you, Steve. There are only a couple of races where 25Mod rigs ran with the BMod Yamato's. While Doc Miller seems to have a great formula for making 25OMC run pretty fast, the rest of us 25Mod guys are outclassed at every race when running with the Yamato's. Allowing us to continue to have an option of running either class without really threatening to take their trophies seems to be the best option.
Proposal #4. We don't need to be adding weight for bringing the class to parity. No proven DISPARITY exists ! Seems like a stab in the dark to attempt to force 25Merc/OMC out of BMod if the other Proposal#3 fails. The result is the same. Besides, did anyone measure the speed/acceleration changes this proposal might cause. How do the 3-lap and 4-lap competition records between BMod and 25Mod compare? That would be a good starting point.
I am a 25Mod Merc racer and I wonder, also, what crank modifications might cost? Who does this work? How do THEY know it will make us faster? Is this just a theory or proven result?
Vote NO on Proposal #3 and #4 ! Dunno' what to make of #6 ? Mike Marshall, Raceboat61-S AMR, BMR, 25Mod, and....BMH wannabe'

[raceboat61-S]

APBA Statistics

Gents,
I looked up the APBA records for 25ModHydro and BModHydro and they confirm my expereriences in the past 4 years competing in this class:
The 25Mod records for 3mi/4lap and 3mi/3lap are 3 MPH slower than the same records for the Yamato. 25Mod is about 57-59MPH and Bmod is 60-63Mph. Lets assume that record setting conditions were about equal because records aren't broken in rough water so the comparisions should be good.
I see no threat to the BMod Yamato coming from us 25Mod guys. Let us have the option of occasionally "stepping up" so we can race, too. Places where combining classes has been the only option recently was at Lock Haven, and Alexandria,Ky, last season. This year I'm told that 25/Bmod will run at Constantine ?! THat would be great if we don't outlaw it. Mike Marshall

[Jack Stotts]

Mike, the proposed rule changes that are on the recent ballot, I believe, will not take effect until 09 racing season except for Mod # 2 and # 9

[DrRick34-0]

Hey Mike and Steve----I agree with you about letting us keep the 25 mod in the B mod class. I think it is a great combination and I don't see where the 25 mod has been dominant. It does give the 25 mod another class which some may not think is fair, but it also helps build up the B mod on the local class level. I think it has been fun to have the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Toyota in the B mod. It also helps build up the B mod in the runabout where numbers have been down in the past, but had a good showing in Zanesville this last year. I actually don't know how many 25 mods were there in the runabout, but it definetely helps their numbers. There have been some times where we did not have enough 25 mods to run, but at least we could run in the B mod. Let's keep numbers up and competition up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rick Miller
34-0

[STEVE FRENCH]

I will take a look at the numbers in B-MOD hydro 2006-2007 but I'm SURE there was several races were you had 1-2 B-MOD Yamatos and 1-2 OMC/MERC rigs .......All the above would of sat on the beach....PUPPY-EYED........and no points......if these proposal(s) were in place........

I hope the author of these proposals looks at the "big picture" of the result....Today....and down the road when someone WANTS to bring a NEW motor into...MOD

Last year I think it was Mike Thierfelder, "Doc" Miller, Steve Wheeler, and me that stepped up to ....SUPPORT.... the B-MOD class.................again...THANK-YOU.....and thanks for help'n the 25MOD class get back on it's feet.........hopefully we were of some benefit when "B" needed an extra rig to make a class........and support a club....

HOT-ROD/Sidewinder/25XS-SS/OMC B-MOD runabout guys..................take notice
C-MOD MERC/WIZARD drivers.....take notice
IN FACT....ANY minority engine owner/builder.....take notice....

19P...."2X4.........freeze pop"?............SAD SAD SAD

[bh/]

mods ?

I do not vote in 'mod' this year, and admit i do not fully comprehend the significance of these mod rule changes, but as a 'mission statement' should we not be moving towards a simple A,B,C,D/E, class structure, where we leave no one on the beach?
Should we not be trying to structure a Bmod class that accommodates any motor that is not obviously an A or a C ?
I prefer weight handicapping, rather than height rules or restrictors.
Weight [mass] affects acceleration, cornering speeds , and to a lesser extent, top end.
There is no mystery to all this, as the formulae predicting performance are readily available in the literature.
If the Y80s are dominant in Bmod then drop 10# in them this year, and so forth, until we get parity.
Seems simple from here, but......

[raceboat61-S]

HUH ? !! "If the Y-80 is dominate then drop THEM 10lbs" ? Whazzat? What DISPARITY? Look at the available competition statistic records.
Gents, this is quite simply matter of a group of B-Mod Yamato guys who have support from the Mod Commissioners to put on the ballot a measure to force one (1) supremely competitive 25Mod guy (Doc Miller) out of the line-up at the Nationals. See it for what it is. If it ain't already obvious, I feel strongly about this. Mike Marshall, Raceboat 61-S

[modhydro]

25MH questions

Mike,

You missed the "in" on Brian's post. He said that if the Yamatos were dominant to drop 10# IN them.

I wasn't able to make the meeting due to a family death that weekend. I sure wish that I was at the meeting to see what arguments could have swayed the commision to add a ballot item to add weight to a boat that is already slower than the rest of the field. There must have been some awfully good "lawyering" going on for that to get by. I am going to call a few of the commissioners I know and see what I can learn.

It seems like a better route may have been to work towards actual parity of a 25MH and Yamato so that in time they could be rolled into one class. How can we always talk about too many classes and then add ballot items that would effectively end what was an experiment towards potentially rolling two very similar classes into one?

I sure hope that common sense and sound judgement will prevail on this and the 25's are allowed to remain in B at the same weight as they have been at. I just don't see the reasoning in messing with what appears to be a pretty equitable structure that if anything is already slanted in favor of Yamatos anyway.

Steve Roskowski

[swheeler]

I think that one concern of the Yamoto drivers is they have no input on tech rules for the 25 engines. The 25/400 drivers vote on ballot items and then the engines run in B. That is a legitimate concern but I don't think it merits banning the 25 engines. Lets try to find a solution that will work for everyone.

At my first race back from retirement I would not have been able to race if I couldn't have run with the B's due to lack of 25's.
On the other hand there were few B's at Dayton last year. With the ecomonic conditions as they are it doesn't make sense to take boats off the water. I don't think the class will be over run with 25's. With the difference in boat sizes it's a pretty bad ride in a 25 rig.

Also, if parity is a concern where is the help for the 20 cubic in hot rod? If the intent is to leave the Yamoto 80 and the hot rod/Sidewinder as the only legal engines, and the Sidewinder is the only new engine, shouldn't something be done to make them competive?

[STEVE FRENCH]

I think that one concern of the Yamoto drivers is they have no input on tech rules for the 25 engines. The 25/400 drivers vote on ballot items and then the engines run in B. That is a legitimate concern but I don't think it merits banning the 25 engines. Lets try to find a solution that will work for everyone.

Finally...a point I can agree on.....The only "big" change in 25MOD was allow'n the use of any foot that meets the CURRENT specs R/S and ratios.....due to a grow'n lack of A/B/C Merc and Hot-Rod foots.....I have tried the A/OMC foot which is a neat/easy addition...but it is identical to the new style Hot-rod foot on the at-speed,wetted surfaces...in fact the larger skeg might make this foot a little slower?....I do intend to try my vertical pro foot....but have to add material to meet the (old) current, 25MOD Spec.....But IF this is the core of the issue,....absolutely.......no upgrades since the OMC/Mercs were crossed over should be allowed till the B class has it's day in court when runn'n in this class and there is no dought in my "pee-brain"........the OMC/MERC driver's that are and would continue to support "B" would be in agreement and get it in write'n ASAP........how hard is that?

I would have NO problem If B-MOD drivers had/have a say (and I honestly thought they do?) in new changes when OMC/MERC drivers support B-MOD.....Seems like there was a proposal that applied to this very senerio a couple years ago and it specified ...."when runn'n in B..."?

Anyway, the proposal is there and I will respect the wishes of the majority....(sorta)
And THANK YOU ....if ya keep us .....IN-THE-HUNT...........
...Ya gott'a admit, it was a good show between Doc and Palmquist at Zanesville last year.
Now if I could just find that "MAGIC" wheel I lost at Franklin in 2005....

19P

[STEVE FRENCH]

Edited my last post and respectfully ask the Class to review it before send'n back their ballots............Thank you.

Steve French
19P

Finally...a point I can agree on.....The only "big" change in 25MOD was allow'n the use of any foot that meets the CURRENT specs R/S and ratios.....due to a grow'n lack of A/B/C Merc and Hot-Rod foots.....I have tried the A/OMC foot which is a neat/easy addition...but it is identical to the new style Hot-rod foot on the at-speed,wetted surfaces...in fact the larger skeg might make this foot a little slower?....I do intend to try my vertical pro foot....but have to add material to meet the (old) current, 25MOD Spec.....But IF this is the core of the issue,....absolutely.......no upgrades since the OMC/Mercs were crossed over should be allowed till the B class has it's day in court when runn'n in this class and there is no dought in my "pee-brain"........the OMC/MERC driver's that are and would continue to support "B" would be in agreement and get it in write'n ASAP........how hard is that?

I would have NO problem If B-MOD drivers had/have a say (and I honestly thought they do?) in new changes when OMC/MERC drivers support B-MOD.....Seems like there was a proposal that applied to this very senerio a couple years ago and it specified ...."when runn'n in B..."?

[STEVE FRENCH]

Rossman...lost yer number...We need your support on this and any other OMC/MERC/HOT-ROD/Y-80 Yamato ....B/350-MOD eligable drivers !!!!!

Unless you want to see the same old parade in B/350-MOD

Drive'n to Oil-City today to talk to Tom Rice and git copy of vote sheet to give Charlie Fry.....

19P

[94H]

I generally stay out of Hydro Racer discussions, here’s an exception.

After reading the above HR posts, I’m left with the impression that there are a few 25 /BMH drivers who aren’t current with the Modified Tech Manual or the Mod Commission Meeting Minutes. The issue of removing the 25 engine from BMH is not a new subject and has been a discussion item at the Mod Commission meetings for some time. This is the first year that the topic was strong enough to gain enough commission votes to go to ballot. Maybe there are more disgruntled BMH drivers than you think.

On a personal note, the words “Allowing us to continue to have an option of running either class without really threatening to take their trophies seems to be the best option” threw fuel on the fire. It seems that the 25 drivers are upset over the “possibility” that you may no longer race one rig in two classes. You should have just said that BMH is a fun thing to do whenever you feel like doing it – kinda of like riding a moped!

I decided to write a recap of BMH events from the initial reasoning that combined the two engines to present day ballot. I think after reading this time line, you’ll see that the Yamato and Hot Rod guys were the ones who really got screwed. Please read!

History lesson – Bringing the 25 engine into BMH
For those complaining, I’ll use BMH instead of 350 CC and use 25MH instead of 400CC

Back when Bill Breaux was Mod Chairman, he proposed that we reduce the number of Mod classes by combining the sparse 25MH class with BMH and make “parity corrections in the following years”. He didn’t kill the 25MH class that year but it was targeted to go away. All BMH drivers got to vote on this combination and “most” agreed to this progressive move.

In the following years the 25MH class substantially grew in numbers and the Mod Commission decided that they couldn’t kill the class - just yet. The combined class of 25MH / BMH was left alone and 25MH drivers were able to run two classes with one rig. The “B” Yamato and Hot Rod drivers that agreed to the combination got to stand on the beach and watch the 25MH class continue race – as we still do!

It then became apparent that the Mod Commission really screwed up because any approved 25MH rule change became retroactive in BMH without the BMH drivers voting on it - unfair. This was because we never eliminated the 25MH class.

It took another year to fix this. With participant numbers up in 25MH, the only fair solution was to freeze the 25MH engine rules to 2005 specifications for any 25 engine running in BMH. Remember that BMH drivers can’t vote on 25MH rule changes and the 25MH drivers are entitled to do whatever they want to their class through the voting process – a process that Modified still controls.

This means two separate engine specifications for the 25 engine. Mod inspectors now have to look for “new” engine modifications, voted on and approved in current year 25MH rules, which would eliminate a 25 engine from winning in BMH completion. Note that there are 4 new 25MH engine modifications requested for approval on this year’s ballot.

In the 2006 Modified Outboard Minutes, you’ll see that there was discussion and a vote to remove the 25 engine from the BMH class - it lost by one vote. You’ll also see that there was a motion to eliminate the 25MH class as we originally planned. The 25MH drivers got a huge break and the motion was not seconded.

At the 2007 Detroit Mod Commission Meeting, there was again discussion to separate the 25MH engine from BMH, or at the least allow the Yamato to run in the 25MH class since they are considered equal engines ( fair is fair ). Allowing the Yamato into 25MH class didn’t seem to interest the commission and a proposal and vote took place to remove the 25MH engine from BMH. This motion passed with 9 approving and 1 against (3 abstentions)

There was also discussion and vote to correct the weight difference between the 25MH engine (racing in BMH) and the Y-80 engine and is viewed as a parity correction – remember the earlier agreement about “parity correction”. This ballot item was added in case the first ballot item failed to pass and the motion passed with 11 approving / 1 against (1 abstention). This will not change the existing 25MH weight of 370 lbs.

Whether relevant or not, there was also discussion about new BMH drivers coming over from Stock if the new “Sidewinder” engine was to be approved in the 20SSH class. Factual or not, we heard that a few stock drivers are seeking out suppliers of chamber systems for their Y-80 engines. This could increase participant numbers in BMH – a good thing!

If there’s one thing that I’ve learned from this, it’s that the Modified Outboard Commission (or any commission) should never make long range plans that require implementation by future commissioners. Things change and promises can be broken!

The big question that’s still on my mind is whether the 25MH class would still be around today had Bill Breaux let it struggle through the normal class probationary process, and not allow the engine the opportunity to run in two classes.

Bob Koschka – BMH boat owner and past BMH driver who voted to allow the 25 engine in BMH.

[swheeler]

Thanks for the insight as to what has transpired in the past Bob. It does help someone like me who was out of racing for some time and had somewhat of a gap in the history of the classes. I'd just viewed the situation as being similiar to the 44 Mercs running in formula E. A good one could be competive with the average Formula Es but couldn't beat the best.
I find that it is not easy to sort through the tech manuel as it seems to conflict with itself. One sentence states that any motor legal in 25 is legal in B but then other passages restrict what can be done. I find it hard to understand how an inspector might rule and can only guess as to what was intended.
Is the concern over the Merc 25 or the OMC 25? The reason I ask is there are more modifications allowed on an OMC in B then an OMC in 25. If so then maybe a better approach would be to return the OMC to the 25 specs.
Just as a side bar, when was the 20 cubic inch Merc dropped from B? I thought it was still legal but the proposal that started this thread seeks to remove the 25 motors from B and leave the Yamoto 80 and the 20 cubic inch hot rod as the only legal motors. The 20 cubic inch Merc is not mentioned.
Also, is it generally thought that the Hot Rod is competive with the Yamoto? If not then what can be done to help the Hot Rod?
Thanks for you input and for all that the MORC does to support modified outboard racing.

Steve Wheeler