RULE CHANGE BALLOT #'s 3/4/6

[dholt]

Hey, Bob. Good to see a voice add some perspective to the argument.

I have no dog in this fight...just a curious on-looker.

I do have a question, though. Once a class in Mod reaches 10 or fewer boats, it is placed on probation. This is what the rule book says. But it says nothing about what "Probation" means...or what happens after a class is put on probation.

So...can you add some insight? What happens next? How does a class get eliminated? Anyone out there have the answer?

I will say up front, that our stock rule regarding class elimination is more defined, but still completely unsatisfactory. I have offered a more clear cut rule...but it has never made it out of the commission meetings.

By the way...why not eliminate 25MH but keep it in the BMH class? Doc Miller has proven that you can win with that rig. Why have 2 classes nearly exactly the same performance?


Dana

[DrRick34-0]

Hey Bob---- I am confused about the freezing of rules for 25's to 2005 in the B class. Is that the way the rules read now. What modifications can be done for the B class that are not legal for 25 that have been mentioned. I have always assumed that the rules were the same for 25 and the 25 in the B (sorry about my ignorance and laziness to go look it up right now). It does seem that if the 25 could stay in the B class, the B guys should be able to vote on any 25 changes for fairness reasons. Also the parity committee if mod's have one should be able to help. Adding 50 pounds to the 25 in B is pretty much going to eliminate it from B. Just a few thoughts and questions.

Rick Miller DDS

[swheeler]

Rick, the passage you want to check is on page 15 of the 2008 mod tach manuel, item number 7. If you send me your email address I'll see if I can attach it. It states that any 400cc engines that meet 400 specs are legal in 350. It then states that there are no port specs for OMC 400 engines running in 350. Of course port specs do apply in 400.
I'm not sure where the rule freeze provision is but as I've stated before I'm not good at understanding the tech manuel. Maybe someone smarter then I can help us out.

[94H]

I’m back!

Let me start off by saying there are two things you shouldn’t do in life. One is “Don’t Drink and Drive” and the other is “Don’t get pissed off and write a Hydro Racer post”.

As you can tell, I find it frustrating that the Mod Commission members spend their personal time and money to try to keep the category in forward motion and a few drivers (usually during ballot time) try to train wreck decisions that they should have been involved with from the start. Why aren’t you guys paying attention?

I’ve yet to hear one really good argument to keep the 25 engine in BMH other than personal choice to run two classes with one engine. Explain to me why you think the BMH drivers should allow you to continue racing BMH when you have a primary class in which you can run.

Here are some quick answers to yesterday questions – thanks for listening to my ranting.
Steve Wheeler and Rick Miller –
1) My oversight – the 20 CI Merc is a legal 350 (BMH) engine.

2) Here’s my opinion on the Hot Rod’s slow fall from BMH grace.
The Hot Rod factory always showed up at the nationals with a factory team that spanked the other Hot Rods – not good PR. The Yamato engine starts every time you pull the rope. The Yamato engine goes into the trailer and stays there until the next race.

3)From memory, I think new modifications allowed in 25MH are:
Use of the Yamato 302 gear box ( Steve French - not any gear box ). Different reed plates allowed. Re-sleeving the block. Possible addition of the four ballot items on this year’s ballot – applies to next year if it passes. The Spec sheet is funny – why are there no “A – C1” dimensions on the 350 engine and they appear on the 400 engine?

Dana Holt – Less than 10 “drivers” participating in the class:
First year – Probation with no restrictions
Second year (still less than 10) – No records or points (championship allowed)
Third year (still less than 10) – No championship records or points –
Less than 10 drivers after three years – class eliminated.


Bob Koschka

[STEVE FRENCH]

I’m back!

Let me start off by saying here are two things you shouldn’t do in life. One is “Don’t Drink and Drive” and the other is “Don’t get pissed off and write a Hydro Racer post”.

As you can tell, I find it frustrating that the Mod Commission members spend their personal time and money to try to keep the category in forward motion and a few drivers (usually during ballot time) try to train wreck decisions that they should have been involved with from the start. Why aren’t you guys paying attention?

I’ve yet to hear one really good argument to keep the 25 engine in BMH other than personal choice to run two classes with one engine. Explain to me why you think the BMH drivers should allow you to continue racing BMH when you have a primary class in which you can run.

Bob Koschka

Just a few thoughts.......

#3. I understand the 25MOD/400cc class LOOKS strong enough to stand alone as of the end of last season, but it is still a region 6 class as far as numbers......outside of this area you will have a hard time put'n a class together.
I have really enjoyed running with the "B" drivers even though I have yet to see a OMC/MERC-22 walk away with a win........Close, but Lady Luck had to be on yer side and a great start to come close to stay'n up front......
If my verbal "jabs" at the Yamato's "offened" anyone.........

#4 "To provide parity"....? ......50 !!!!! LBS
The current weight is what keeps us even CLOSE to compete'n with you folks
(Might as well stand on dock and drop a 50 LB anchor through the bottom of rig )

With X# rigs needed for for National/Divisional points,........And most sites want'n 5 rigs or combine......seems like you would want to keep all the rigs you could?

Yamato Drivers way out number the hand full of OMC-MERC-HOT ROD drivers in this class and you WILL easily "BOOT" us out with either of these proposals......
"BE CAREFULL WHAT YOU WISH FOR"..................

Any other thought?

19P SEEEE YAAAAAA.........in my wake........?

I will take a look at the numbers in B-MOD hydro 2006-2007 but I'm SURE there was several races were you had 1-2 B-MOD Yamatos and 1-2 OMC/MERC rigs .......All the above would of sat on the beach....PUPPY-EYED........and no points......if these proposal(s) were in place........

I hope the author of these proposals looks at the "big picture" of the result....Today....and down the road when someone WANTS to bring a NEW motor into...MOD

Last year I think it was Mike Thierfelder, "Doc" Miller, Steve Wheeler, and me that stepped up to ....SUPPORT.... the B-MOD class.................again...THANK-YOU.....and thanks for help'n the 25MOD class get back on it's feet.........hopefully we were of some benefit when "B" needed an extra rig to make a class........and support a club....

HOT-ROD/Sidewinder/25XS-SS/OMC B-MOD runabout guys..................take notice
C-MOD MERC/WIZARD drivers.....take notice
IN FACT....ANY minority engine owner/builder.....take notice....

19P...."2X4.........freeze pop"?............SAD SAD SAD

__________________________________________________ ________________________

"What we seem to have here is a failure to COMMUNICATE"!
"I'm guilty?....Your guilty!.........this court is GUILTY!!!!"
What film(s) did these (mis) quotes come from...........(Al Pachino?)

Ok, With the above review, Let me back up and try to restate/justify my paranoid reason for start'n this thread......
I started in this sport in 1999.........I started into 25MOD in 2002? and won High points in region 6 which was a complete surprise to me when Jeff 5P called.
Since then I have had a passion for this class which I think had a small part in it's reserrection (spell check!)
I also helped propose let'n the 25's in stock form run A-MOD.....and intend to continue help'n them "tread water" this season.....Hopefully the Merc/OMC 25's are still welcome to support this class.

I guess what really bothers me about the arrival of this ballot ("Freight train") is that I didn't see it coming down the tracks.......maybe that IS my own fault?....
I think I saw several request for what proposals were going to the MOD convention and somehow missed the replys?....
I also read the PROPELLER from back to front and did not see any mension of this in fall issues BEFORE or after the convention....
When you have proposals that are of this importance, is it too much to ask for a outline and reasons with history for us new and ignorant members of the class to be published in the PROPELLER far enough ahead so we can contact our Commisioners BEFORE it is a ballot item?

As you can tell, I find it frustrating that the Mod Commission members spend their personal time and money to try to keep the category in forward motion and a few drivers (usually during ballot time) try to train wreck decisions that they should have been involved with from the start. Why aren’t you guys paying attention?
Bob Koschka

B-MOD is not a moped ride for me. I managed to earn/rank 13th out of 38 in 9 races support'n BMH/2005 and 8th out of 46 in 12 races BMH/2004 (Do the math on that investment).........nor is A-MOD with my 25/OMC (in stock form) ....Or is my C-MOD/Wizard.
....Being the underdog in these class's and the challenge of run'n with the BIG-DAWGS.......has not only been excite'n, but also when close to winn'n........well, I can't even put words to that thought right now....but have'n Billy Allen, or any other front runn'n B/C MOD Yamato or A-MOD Hot-Rod driver like Tom Sutherland walk up and say "**** that was fun"..........PRICELESS.

I can not afford the investment needed to be competative with a Yamato nore do I have the connections with engine/boat builders or 2-3 generations of previous racers in my family to draw experience from.......I CAN afford to slap in a set of rings and hone the big end on rods in a .........old fish'n motor....

Does any other MOD racer understand this pitiful grassroots reasoning?

When needed I will continue to be avail to the B-MOD class to get'm out there in..2008

I lent my 25 OMC to Charlie Fry last year to support BMR at the NATIONALS (a class that had 10 or less 2004/5/6) and he is look'n forward to running it again this year in AMR (in stock form).

19P....Better to be "Pissed off".....than pee'd on?

Pic ...Me lead'n the (3) BMH's (for first lap) Ocoee Winter Record Runs 2007.....How many would of ran without me?.............and they traveled farther than me.............

[STEVE FRENCH]

Bob,
After yer history on this merger in 199x(?).....I would also think that some positive words for Bill's efforts to save the 25MOD class are only "fair"/ due.........At least the man tried/did something..........The future is unclear....Hindsite?-20/20.
I feel since you voted yes at the time you must of believed in him.

The only issue I see were not(?) having a provision to allow the B drivers to vote on changes when run'n in this class(?) .......(if that is the case)......(and I think mine and Rick Miller's (Morris built) B-MOD 25 motors predate any recent updates).......and possibly a time line for a merger or seperation (If 25MOD gits back on it's feet)......

It's easy to FIX things in hindsite (20/20).......If only being a leader came with a crystal ball...........

But this is what I find most unsettle'n.....Especially when several NEW racers invested heavily in 25MOD equipment.....and boats..in the last couple years.....

........... In the 2006 Modified Outboard Minutes, .........You’ll also see that there was a motion to eliminate the 25MH class as we originally planned. The 25MH drivers got a huge break and the motion was not seconded..........

Bob Koschka

But now all will be corrected and ..."WE"... will be back were this situation started......10(?) years ago........right?

I'll have a couple cool ones to share with ya at Franklin.. .....Maybe you can help this old "Jackass" pull out this 2X4.....just give me 3-steps before ya start swing'n with it...... and ya might want to wear gloves after where it was STUCK ......

There should be an additional rule. Racers that don't have enough brains to make there own decision and have to go to Hydroracer for help deciding how to vote should be required to wear a shirt that says "Jackass" for one season. Second offenses are where we shove a 2X4 up there azz's and have them walk throught the pits like a freeze pop.

Further more racers that lobby on the internet to gather votes for a rule change in there class thinking they are making a difference should be subjected to a manditory IQ test prior to APBA membership and one year of working with Ed Hearn as a volunteer at the Hair Club For Men.

Mike Barrett's 2 Cents.

19P
Steve French/"Freeze POP"

PS.. " (Steve French - not any gear box.)"
Not sure if ya got me on that one or not.
line#4. "Any lower unit meeting...."....https://hydroracer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6713
https://hydroracer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9931

".........with Ed Hearn as a volunteer at the Hair Club For Men.".....ding,ding,ding....whoo..whoo

[94H]

Steve,
Regarding your comments on being notified about rule proposals, you first have to understand that the Mod Commission gets rule change requests right up to start of the Commission meeting. Anything posted earlier (say on HR or the Propeller) wouldn’t be complete. The Commission meeting is open to all Modified Outboard drivers and anyone else who’s interested – you are invited. After the completion of the meeting, the minutes are written up and posted on the APBA web site before the ballots are mailed.

I’m still a little confused about your 25 / BMH comments. Are you concerned about local races where they combined the BMH and 25MH classes and score them separately? Two classes can be combined at any local race and is usually per the Race Officials discretion. You can run three 25MH’s with three BMH’s and they will still get points. You can probably run three 25MH's with one BMH (officials decretion) however the BMH won't get points. Anyone want to comment on this?

With the price of gas, I think it's a good idea that drivers make a few phone calls with their class members before turning on the igniton key. Very few drivers I know can make every race that's on the schedule.

I see your point on the 25 gear box wording for BMH however if you continue to read, it refers to the “any lower unit” meeting Modified 250 and 350 “class” specifications or the 25SS specifications. If you race a 25 engine in BMH (not 25MH) with a lower unit other than the "B" Mercury, Hot Rod or the 25SS lower unit (matching the R & S dimensions and tooth count) - you will be disqualified! The 25MH class allows the "B" Mercury, Hot Rod, 25SS and the Yamato 302 lower unit.

I’d gladly take your beer offer at Franklin however K&S Racing has a long standing commitment to the Indy 500. We hate to miss the Franklin race but the pre race party (in Indy) is the best! Watching this year’s Indy 500 is going to be like watching FEH at the nationals – go IRL!

Bob Koschka

[STEVE FRENCH]

Back when Bill Breaux was Mod Chairman, he proposed that we reduce the number of Mod classes by combining the sparse 25MH class with BMH and make “parity corrections in the following years”. He didn’t kill the 25MH class that year but it was targeted to go away. All BMH drivers got to vote on this combination and “most” agreed to this progressive move.
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If there’s one thing that I’ve learned from this, it’s that the Modified Outboard Commission (or any commission) should never make long range plans that require implementation by future commissioners. Things change and promises can be broken!

Bob Koschka

Bob, you mensioned "promises"......are they mensioned in the meeting minutes?

If the plan was to marriage the classses down the road or divorce the two if the 25 class comes back in numbers strong enough to stand alone by the year 200X, wouldn't you think that these two ballots could of been avoided?......Any link to, or papers on, those meetings?

Speaking for myself, of the two, I would rather run independent just because of the rough water when running in B.........Perhaps the 20" Hot-Rods/Mercs and future 20"(?) Sidewinders and the 25XS's would rather run with us for the same reason since the boats/speeds are close to the same....Call us the new B class down the road ........How do the Y-80/102/302 speeds/boats in MOD compare?
But, I will miss the challenge of compete'n with the Yamatos even when combined B/C-MOD like at Warren Pa......who won that race?
Especially if I find that 2-mph "magic" wheel that "divorced" me at the 2005 Nationals, and is now reside'n at the bottom of the lake in Franklin with a fresh Merc foot............

I would not bring the "any" gear foot to the B class after finding out the B folks were not(?) involved in the ballot.

Steve,

I’m still a little confused about your 25 / BMH comments. Are you concerned about local races where they combined the BMH and 25MH classes and score them separately? Two classes can be combined at any local race and is usually per the Race Officials discretion. You can run three 25MH’s with three BMH’s and they will still get points. You can probably run three 25MH's with one BMH (officials decretion) however the BMH won't get points. Anyone want to comment on this?

Bob Koschka

See the caption above the Ocoee Winter Record Run pic above......3-1=none/no-points...

Pic ...Me lead'n the (3) BMH's (for first lap) Ocoee Winter Record Runs 2007.....How many would of ran without me?.............and they traveled farther than me.............

I will take a look at the numbers in B-MOD hydro 2006-2007 but I'm SURE there was several races were you had 1-2 B-MOD Yamatos and 1-2 OMC/MERC rigs .......All the above would of sat on the beach....PUPPY-EYED........and no points......if these proposal(s) were in place.......

I'm sure I will recognise you next time our paths cross and look forward to share'n a few.......Lets go RACE"N !!!!!!!!!!!

19P

[DrRick34-0]

After reading all that has been posted, one of my questions is why is the 25 mod on the ballots to be removed from the hydro, but not the runabout. If the motor is a problem in the B Class, again why the hydro and not the runabout. I would assume the runabout is definitely weaker in numbers and needs any boost it can get????? I would assume that the B guys think the 25 mod guys have their own class?????? Just trying to get some clarification...

Rick Miller
34-0

[STEVE FRENCH]

https://hydroracer.net/forums/showthr...385#post102385

Don, Would like to buy a poster copy of that photo.....?

Congrats Doc on yer win in BMR..............kind'a bitter sweet huh?
Enjoy it....You and yer crew worked hard to EARN it.....

Bet Rick Morris is proud to see old "MAGNA" up front again...... the "Legal Eagle" told me that motor had a bounty on it in NBRA at one time..........Kinda ironic.

Hope to see ya at Whitney........

Going to put a call into Larry Stanander to see if interested in runn'n BMR with my OMC.
Kinda motivated now to get back at these motors........

Tell Doc Sr the flowers are start'n to bloom in Erie, Pa. on the Presquile Penninsula...........is he work'n on any flower hybrids?

Will look ya up if Beth and I get out there to visit Rick and Mary ......Brian Thorpe.........and Dudley Malone.

19P