SO Yamato Rule Changes

[14-H]

i'm sure you're familar with the phrase involving a pot and kettle...

Touche', Kevin. I must admit, you had me laughing on that one. Your posts are contradictory, though. This comes from someone who makes a living at demonstrating what a prior "inconsistent" statement is, on a daily basis (not that you should take my word for it because of that).

[14-H]

Position Bias

All you have to know to understand what is going on here is to know what equipment the guys who say "leave it alone", own. I'm not saying that's true in ALL of the positions here; just most of them.

Disclosure: I do not now nor have I ever owned Yamato equipment. Nor am I planning on it in the future. Ed Hearn.

[drbyrne55]

gearbox...

Dan: I would agree with you if we didn't allow cutting on the gearbox. But we do. Unfortunately, the horse is out of the barn on that one. Ed.

Ed, If a guy can run a 302 at 70mph at 1/8 inch and his gear box is within specs ... maybe the 302 wins nationals..... basically you end up needing to build separate OSY props and CSH props as it looks to me if you want to run less 1/2 inch in OSY....

Dan

[14-H]

Ed, If a guy can run a 302 at 70mph at 1/8 inch and his gear box is within specs ... ***

Dan

Problem is, the specs in the SO inspection manual are nowhere near the blueprint specs. This is where the problem lies. Ed.

[Charlie Pater]

I need to comment on height limitations for the 302/102. Either the 302 or the 102 can run and get plenty of cooling water at 1/2 inch below the bottom of the boat if the outfit is properly setup. By setup I mean the boat, motor and propeller are properly prepared and matched (you don't need to do the tricky stuff that Dean talked about). It really isn't rocket science.

Now, changing the rule to require people to run at 3/4 of an inch below the bottom would cause several things to happen.

First of all it could cause some peoples outfits to run more unstable than at 1/2 inch. This would happen because of the way people would start setting up their outfits at the 3/4 inch depth.

Secondly, to prepare one of the top running outfits in the country, most people would need to get a new boat. Running deeper would change the amount of wetted surface on the Yamato lower unit and to counteract that, boat designs would change. I believe these changes would make for a less stable ride and cause more flips and unwanted lane changes.

Third, many good running propellers would become obsolete and to run at the nationals level, new props may very well be required.

Fourth, I do not believe it would help the PERCEIVED disparity between the 102 and 302 (I strongly believe the 302 can win the CSH nationals).

If people want to have an external water pickup for the 302 when running at a depth of 1/2 inch or any deeper depth, it is fine with me. It may save them some setup work.

[HYDRO21Z]

my 302 or my 102 hmmmm?

When I started racing CSH in 1997 I bought a 302 with no idea about engine differences.
I raced a 302 on a GP hull, then made the change to RunneCrafts.
John and I tested back then quite a bit, and the results were that i cooked
my motor many times trying to run the set up competitive with the 102's.
We finally found a setup/boat design that would run at what we had learned back then were where the 102's were being set-up at, and would pump water.
Punch was better, but speed still off by 1mph
Last summer I could start with, pull past in the turns Mr. Bob Wartinger, but
at the end of each straightaway he would pull about a boat length, which after three laps he was always ahead- at the end of that race I bought
a 102!!!!
I have had to retest, and learn, but my 102 program is coming along, but
ahhh I still have my 302 I still test it, and with prop tech coming along, and improving it has been improving nicely.
Coming from a "nobody" racer my opinion is that the 302 is nearly at speed with the 102, but to make it work there are differences in boat designs that have to be tested and mated to the right prop (sound familiar?)
If the 102 were phased out in some period of time (which I think is the right direction SO should go in favor of current production motors) I would buy the 302 if I did not already have one to keep racing. I will never quit, I may be forced to stop some day, but would not quit because of planned equipment
retirement.

I have no records, no championships, and few wins, but for what it is worth,
I still have my opinion, which is just as valid as those with all the history.
Racing is an addiction, and we will continue to suffer from it regardless of which motor is approved or retired!

My two cents worth,
Dennis 21Z

[csh12M]

[QUOTE=Charlie Pater;68887]I need to comment on height limitations for the 302/102. Either the 302 or the 102 can run and get plenty of cooling water at 1/2 inch below the bottom of the boat if the outfit is properly setup. By setup I mean the boat, motor and propeller are properly prepared and matched (you don't need to do the tricky stuff that Dean talked about). It really isn't rocket science.


Hey Charlie, I agree with everything you are saying about height. I was just trying to explain why it was put on in the first place. You do not need to do anything tricky to run at a 1/2 inch, but you do need to do it to run at 0 - 1/4 inch. When I started running CSH I learned that the 1 -2 guys who were consistantely beating me could run at that height. So I studied asked questions and pestered people until I learned how, and then I did it also.

I also agree I may have given up a little quick on the 302. However, it was because a certain 53M was passing me every weekend with 2 mph and a 102 on the back of his rig. Once again, I observed and then I copied. You are right it is not rocket science just watch what the best are doing and copy it. A good start here and there helps also.

I will go back to a 302 when Joe does....

Later,
CSH12M

[14-H]

The Silent Majority

Hey Darren and Dana: You guys still think I'm all wet? Ed.

[D_Allen_III]

"However, it was because a certain 53M was passing me every weekend with 2 mph and a 102 on the back of his ride"

Dude, he is still passing everyone with 2 MPH. Weren't you at Wakefield!


...and Ed, I'm sure your hired drivers would be interested in you becoming a Yamato owner. It looked like they enjoyed the ride at Oshkosh and Pleasant Prairie, maybe with some persuasion they could pull you to the dark side

(Start working on him boys!)

[jsilvestri]

I find it interesting that those who do not race CSH with the 302 claim that its not rocket science to make the 302 pump at 1/2 or higher. I've raced CSH with the 302 for 6 years and I've been able to run above 3/4 only a few times. Every time I did this the motor did not pump water very well, which can cause several deterimental things to happen to the engine. Currently, I'm running at 3/4 and am able to pump water all of the time and I run pretty well. The bottom line is that this thread is going no where. I've read every page of this thread and its solved nothing. Leave the height restriction the way it is and move on. Everyone keeps talking about getting new people into racing yet they get on here and cause drama making the sport look bad over something that doesn't need fixed, at least at this time. Focus your energy on something more productive.

[race4kaos]

12m

[QUOTE=CSH12M;68894]

I also agree I may have given up a little quick on the 302. However, it was because a certain 53M was passing me every weekend with 2 mph and a 102 on the back of his rig.

I will go back to a 302 when Joe does....

No Donny, Dean wasn't at Wakefield this year. Nor many other races over the past 2 years (I have even been to more). Sounds like most of his conclusions were drawn over 2 years ago.

Also, he must not remember a 302 rig that was just thrown together being faster (top end) than his 102 program in Big Rapids in '04.

I will admit it seems more difficult to get a 302 to pump at 1/2" than a 102. But once people have figured out a set-up that works, they are in the hunt. (That's why the only change I could possibly understand involves a 302 and a water pick-up... it might save some time, $, and engine parts.)
I think 3/4" depth idea would start the 'A' tuck issue all over again. And CSH's hooking on straightaways in front of people is a BAD idea.

12M, better start looking for a good 302. I will bet one of the 53M rigs will be 302 powered in '08 when they come back to the track (especially if Ed, his replacement, or the SORC come up with a worthy carrot). Plus with all the 302 powered rigs running at the '07 Nationals out west, who knows what could happen. Remember Jean McKay (no offense, love the Schwartz's)? Point is, odds will be increased since many more 302's should be entered.

Ed, you seem to be on a mission with this. When the SORC votes against any changes to CSH rules the first few times, will you keep bringing it up at the meeting until something passes? (like last years' 25SSR 'dilema')
Some might vote something through just to get out of your meeting and to the hosptality suite. Shame on them. Donny, take a cooler into the meeting so the 2Z's in the room don't get the shakes. lol...

[race4kaos]

Ed,

[QUOTE=14-H;68880]All you have to know to understand what is going on here is to know what equipment the guys who say "leave it alone", own. I'm not saying that's true in ALL of the positions here; just most of them.
QUOTE]

I don't see it. It's certainly not 'clear as day', as you indicate. How can you say "most"? Run the numbers and we'll compare. "Consul! In my quarters!"

I own nothing (have access to both). Charlie owns 2 302's. The West Coast guys are saying to 'leave it alone' and own 302's (and are selling 102's). D.Allens own both.
On the flip side, you have 12M in your corner (somehow) that only owns 102's. So how can you say equipment ownership is playing a huge role? It's more the opposite...

Get some fresh air. Take the stroller around the block. GET RID OF THE BLINDERS!!

[dholt]

Not totally all wet

Ed,

The crux of your case is correct...the 302 has never won a Nationals. You assume it's because no one can run at 1/2". According the the majority on this thread...302 drivers can get to 1/2". So there's no need to beat this dead horse about water pick ups, etc...

Seems like the powerband won't allow the 302 to wind up and get that big top end like the 102.

The masses are saying 302's win at local races all the time. Not around the midwest..but elsewhere. So...let it go. NEW racers have a brand new, competitive motor to buy...the 302. If after a few years they realize they want to win the Nats and the 302 isn't cutting it, they can find a 102 easy. I've seen 6-8 for sale this year alone.

Needing "special" equipment to win the Nationals is nothing new. I know you understand that. How many props do you have that kick ass at local races that aren't worth crap at the Nationals? I had plenty like that. And for the record, if I had ever gotten into CSH, I would have bought a 102. But someone like me is much different than the new guy...who's happy to be competitive and have easy access to parts, etc...

There are much bigger fish to fry than this issue.

Let John Runne open everyone's eyes out there. There are real changes we can begin to make. You never responded to my post about the "new" look of of stock. What about some parameters to weed out dying classes? What is the big picture...what should we be in 5 years? When is Hot Rod going to have a supply of engines to sell? How about we give them our plan and say..."build to meet this goal." It's a win-win if there is a plan for the future...not a freaking band-aid for next season...which is what all this BS about 9/16" 102 restrictors in 25ssR/less weight for Merc 25XS/water pick up for 302/1/2" restrictor for this type of Yamato in 25R blah, blah, blah is.

You mentioned in a prior post the increase in CSR numbers over the years and how the available 302 affected that. Very true. Also true that the introduction of the restricted CSR into 25ssR has decreased the CSR numbers. But what you didn't state was what this revealed. This clearly shows the need for a true mid sized runabout class...a REAL BSR...like the old days. 64mph. 370lbs. So how do we get there? Is Hot Rod going to build the 20ci motor? If the SORC says to them..."We're giving you the BSR class...no more Yamatos. Just 20ci Hot Rod and old 25xs Mercs"....I would bet they'd be more inclined to build the motor. The market is there...they can sell engines.

Get where I'm going...why the big picture matters more than next year's restrictor sizes or proposed water pick-ups?

[Charlie Pater]

Big Picture

Great post Dana - The big picture is definitely needed here. The side issues are causing noise in the discussion. We need to have less classes and greater opportunity for seat time for newcommers that run only one class. With fewer classes there will be time for more heats per class.

Also, the 25ssr participation sheds light on something I believe important. Some of the older guys and some newcommers want a runabout ride that is more manageable than any runnabout class we currently have (except for the Yamato 25ssr). The Yamato 25ssr is easer to drive and more forgiving. Something to think about when considering class re-alignment.

Charlie

[14-H]

I get it

Dana: I get it. The problem is that I have set forth a proposal to pair down classes, combine existing equipment, and to make sure that new equipment is attractive to people who want to race in SO so that groups like the Hot Rod Company or Bass Machines will want to build stuff for us to race. But look at the reaction I am getting.

I know you think that the issue of 102 vs. 302 is nit-picking. I don't believe that it is. How can we make any demands that Hot Rod live by a time table when SO can't even demonstrate that there will be a home for this engine when it comes in?

The history of the Merc A, the 302 and the Tohatsu would scare off any right-minded person thinking about wanting to make engines for our category. I guess we're lucky that Ron Selewach is out of his mind.

Ed.