SO Yamato Rule Changes

[MGallagher]

Out of Left field......

Sorry 'bout that! I just reacted to the prices you listed. I had no idea what you were talking about!

Matt Gallagher
58J

[Ron Hill]

Bill Coberly Started Racing at 50....

Can you guys believe that 14-H said to himself, "SELF"....I'm starting to sound like Ron Hill??? What a BREAK THROUGH!!!

Bill Coberly's family owned a Chevy agency, they also owned some farms, one of which was where "THE ONIONFIELD KILLINGS" happened..Bill's dad never wanted Bill to race and he never really raced, though he owned boats for many years until he was 50. (At Long Beach, at age 50, Bill raced C Runabout...) Bill passed at 55 with cancer, Rod Zapf and I both miss him dearly....He was a hell of a friend...

Bill wanted to be part of boat racing. He really didn't race to win. He came, with his two sons to many races. Both of his sons raced C Runabout. At Bill's funeral, I was sitting with Jack Schafer....Who is Jack Schafer?? His dad owned "Such Crust" the unlimited. Jack's dad actually won this boat in a poker game. His dad owned a bread business in and around Detroit. After Jack's dad won th boat, he decided to make it an advertising tool...Sales JUMPED BIG TIME...

Jack now owns a small airplane sales business in California....When I say small, it is next to John Wayne Airport... I mean 200 yareds from American Airlines.... and such...

Anyway, Jack and I are sitting next to the water, at the Newport Yacht Culb, at Bill's funeral...we counted 500 houses that we could see, that had boats anchored in front of their houses. We guessed the average house price to be 3 million (That was 7 years ago...so figure 6 million today) plus their boats in front...average 200 grand.... and we said, "None of these SUM *****ES own and Unlimited Hydro???" Jack said, "You know why??" I said, "Cheap asses." He said, "No, they don't want to spend a million dollars and get beat by Budweiser."

Well, the funny thing is, seems to me since Budweiser is out of Unlimiteds, they have larger fields...maybe, because people think they can win. Only a loser races when he knows he'll lose....For the last two years, we've run the BLUE WATER RESORT AND CASINO 300 ENDURO with handicapped starts...The coolest thing about this race is, just about everyone thinks they can win....

Charles Revson wrote a book called Fire and Ice.....(Revlon Beauty Products)...Charles explains in this book that he isn't selling MAKE-UP... HE'S SELLING HOPE!!!! Hope to women that they will be as beautiful as he girls in the ads....Money is not keeping people out of kneeldown boat racing....the LACK OF HOPE IS....It is too hard to compete!!!

Where and how does the new kneeldown racer figure out how to win? Where does he go an buy equipment? How do you become a WINNER???

[seanp3]

have you actually been to a boat race nowadays? The general population CANNOT afford to buy new equipment. The reason we do get newcomers is because they can "get in" relatively cheap and buy USED equipment. And before you think you know where I have been and what I have been to, rethink that. I have been to ALL forms of sports racing (go-carts, motorcyles, drag races, NASCAR and BUSCH and all other closed wheel racing, open wheel racing, etc) and no exactly what goes on and is entailed. That is why I said you cannot compare our sport with the rest of the general sporting population. Since you do not know me from beans, I will let you know I have been all over the west coast, where there is just about every type of motorsport happening. Here is what it would cost for a newby to buy a new CSH rig:

boat: $2500-$3500
hardware: $500
motor: $2500 (new 302 is $2200+ tax and shipping)
cart: $225
props (3): $975
trailer $3000 (for a single axle enclosed trailer)
safety gear: $1000 (all new SRP gear with SHOEI helmet) actually probably more, but the best investment!
misc other needed equipment: $500

total: $10,000+

..........how many newcomers can afford that.......probably 2%!

I guess I'd be a good one to comment on buying new vs used equipment since this was my first year racing. I entered this scene kind of half hearted not really knowing what I was getting into. The cost of the used equipment is what kind of nudged me along, plus I was very happy with what I go - it was in great shape. If I had to go out and buy new equipment I would have never given it a second chance. Now, after having raced a year and had a great time my thoughts do consider new equipment. However, with guys like Daren and Gary Pond (just to name a few) selling top notch used motors, I'd probably still buy a used motor thats tried and proven. Bottom line is if I had to buy new equipment I would have never entered the racing scene

[14-H]

The Real Reason

Darren: Here is the real reason you don't see any new people coming in buying new equipment.

A Class: New Mercury Engine $1995... but it cannot win.

B Class: New Engines not available.

20/25 Classes: New Engines not available.

C Classes: New engine $3000.00 but cannot win in the APBA's biggest class.

D Classes: New Engine $5000.00 but it cannot win due to handicaps placed on the engine by the parity committee.

I'm sorry but you are just wrong about the importance of new equipment in kneel down boat racing. In the late 80's when we had a new, competitive engine available in every class we ran, we had a sharp increase in members and events. Also, look at Pro's 125 class. It has a new engine available, out of the box, that can be purchased for about $3000.00. That class has grown quite a bit recently. One reason that CSR has had an increase in participation over the last decade and has bucked the trend of decreasing participation that all other SO Classes have is that the 302, which is currently available AND competitive is used in that class. For whatever reason, the 302 simply cannot compete at the important tracks like the 102 in the Hydro class, however, and I hear people telling new potential racers this all the time: "You have to buy a 102 if you want to win in C Hydro."

You are somewhat correct in that there are a lot of boat racers that want to look for used stuff, so that they can tear it apart and make it go fast. The entire Mod category is built around that idea. It also exists somewhat in SO and that is why I am so opposed to getting rid of old engines and I favor trying to make them compete with the new stuff.

But if you think that new equipment is not important, then you are missing the boat, so to speak, as to why our membership has declined in the last decade. Sorry about the pun. Ed.

[14-H]

** Bottom line is if I had to buy new equipment I would have never entered the racing scene

Sean: Your story is very familiar. But it is only one track that leads people to SO racing. Many others perfer to buy the new stuff. In the past, SO has had both avenues available: new, competitive equipment for each class AND good used equipment available too. In fact, the former creates the condition whereby the latter exists. Because you can't have good used equipment available for new people to buy unless someone first buys it new and makes it used. UNLESS, people are quitting!

But currently in SO this is not the case and it has not been the case for about a decade. No new engines are available that anyone wants to buy with the sole exception of a Y-302 in the CSR class.

All of this politics aside, we're glad you've joined us. From east to west and north to south, boat racers are some of the best people on the planet. You'll have fun with us. Ed Hearn.

[mercguy]

Ok............

Darren: Here is the real reason you don't see any new people coming in buying new equipment.

A Class: New Mercury Engine $1995... but it cannot win.

B Class: New Engines not available.

20/25 Classes: New Engines not available.

C Classes: New engine $3000.00 but cannot win in the APBA's biggest class.

D Classes: New Engine $5000.00 but it cannot win due to handicaps placed on the engine by the parity committee.

I'm sorry but you are just wrong about the importance of new equipment in kneel down boat racing. In the late 80's when we had a new, competitive engine available in every class we ran, we had a sharp increase in members and events. Also, look at Pro's 125 class. It has a new engine available, out of the box, that can be purchased for about $3000.00. That class has grown quite a bit recently. One reason that CSR has had an increase in participation over the last decade and has bucked the trend of decreasing participation that all other SO Classes have is that the 302, which is currently available AND competitive is used in that class. For whatever reason, the 302 simply cannot compete at the important tracks like the 102 in the Hydro class, however, and I hear people telling new potential racers this all the time: "You have to buy a 102 if you want to win in C Hydro."

You are somewhat correct in that there are a lot of boat racers that want to look for used stuff, so that they can tear it apart and make it go fast. The entire Mod category is built around that idea. It also exists somewhat in SO and that is why I am so opposed to getting rid of old engines and I favor trying to make them compete with the new stuff.

But if you think that new equipment is not important, then you are missing the boat, so to speak, as to why our membership has declined in the last decade. Sorry about the pun. Ed.

you are right and I am wrong. I am tired of arguing with you, since you are a lawyer, you CANNOT be wrong....................

PS: I have brought more new people into this sport with USED equipment (mainly my old stuff (well, not really old), than have with NEW equipment.

[sam]

C Classes: New engine $3000.00 but cannot win in the APBA's biggest class.

I thought the cost was closer to $2000. Was there a price jump while I wasn't looking?

[14-H]

***, since you are a lawyer, you CANNOT be wrong....................

**.

Darren: 50% of the lawyers are wrong, on any given point. LOL. Ed.

[14-H]

Case In Point

Here is a recent email I received demonstrating why we are missing the opportunity to bring competitors into the sport because we do not have new equipment available. Ed.

Hey Mr. Chairman, you sure take a lot of abuse, but I guess you don't take it personally, which is good, as you are doing this position out of your desire to improve racing and some crazy selfless streak, as it probably doesn't pay much. I raced 20ssh and CSR and then S/C, but have now gone on to other things. I went to a race in our region and was shocked to see how few boats there were, and how few new people there were. few pro boats, collection of ancient mod stuff, 3 boat heats. The point of this is, the raging debate about what motor to use is taking place as the last people seem to be leaving the building. It seems to be simply too hard to get someone that is new to boat racing through the wierd process that includes finding an out of production motor, that was worn out years ago (OMC A/J and now the Yamato 80 and 102 I guess) with no spare parts available, some old boat or another that requires the skills of a carpenter to get working and flail around trying to find a prop that works when nobody seems to know what constitutes a "good prop". Jeez, do you wonder why they all go off and buy a go-kart? I went away when I could no longer make the fun vs cost formula work out. Miss it and miss the people, but don't plan to return as long as a worn out 15 hp fishing engine costs 3000.00.

[Steve Johnson]

My only comment.....

Do we have more growth during peak times of equiptment avalibilty because 1. We have new motors to offer and hope John Q public stumbles across them at a race or whatnot.
2. Because someone with new Motors to offer decided to Market.

3. Lastly, you still gotta get them IN THE LOOP to gather boats trailers. ect.

4. More clean used stuff around,now than ever.

5. Most new guys don't really care about winning. I'm very often asked, Almost always do you make any money? I don't thnk they expect HUGE make a living prizes but most weekender type guys would at least like to split a $500.00 pot

6. I'd like to see a genaric NATIONAL ORG. spectater handout with the SUPPLIERS list right in the covers. and a LOCAL insert of the club newsletter with MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION right there. fill it out hand it back with a check and bam your IN THE LOOP. Make sure the swap ads are in there.

Have a great day!

[Steve Johnson]

So is this what PAIRITY feels like?

Actually whats all the fuss over. I've read and read and this don't compute. We got a win win going here... NEW ENGINES and OLD EDNGINES Racing more or less in harmony.. Newcomers ya want a new one ..... hmm good choice. ya want a used one ...hmm good choice... on about any given sunday they're equal enough so that the racers in this class all feel they have a reasonable shot at a win. I think I'd quit messing with this class. SO ya won. and it really fries me to say so.... Cause I think the drivers should have the final say BY VOTE...even so ya won...

[Charlie Pater]

Ed you say - "One reason that CSR has had an increase in participation over the last decade and has bucked the trend of decreasing participation that all other SO Classes have is that the 302, which is currently available AND competitive is used in that class. For whatever reason, the 302 simply cannot compete at the important tracks like the 102 in the Hydro class, however, and I hear people telling new potential racers this all the time: "You have to buy a 102 if you want to win in C Hydro."



Ed - You are forgetting a very important factor. The CSR class grew not only for the reason you state but another very important factor is that a CSR rig could be used for the 25ssr class AND be competitive UNTIL last year. A person could buy a 302, run CSR and 25ssr and be competitive in both with the same boat.

One of the reasons people do not get into stock outboard racing is the seat time is extremely short. With the scenario above, you could get 4 heats per day on a weekend. New people want to race, not just sit on the shoreline.

Another item that could be considered is to structure the racing day so people could run more than two heats per class. Of course, because of time limitations, it would probably be necessary to drop a couple of classes for the race day but again new people want to be able to get in as many heats (primarily starts) of racing as possible on a given weekend. This is why it is extremely important to reduce the number of classes run at our races. My son is a very good example of this limited seat time problem. He is a very competitive person but does not want to spend tons of time in preparation without having the opportunity to spent more time racing. So rather than race boats he does snowmobiles. He builds up very fast machines and does grudge matches in the winter and grass drags in the summer.

Now, back to the CSH class. Currently, a 302 rig can be run in both 20ssh and CSH. You claim the 302 is not competitive in CSH. I believe the 302 can be competitive in both CSH and 20ssh and that is based on the FACTS generated from our testing. I have all three engines - 302s, 102s, and 80s. Right now it is a tough to decide which combination of boat and engine to work on for next season because all combinations have the potential to win any race, including the nationals in each class. It is very tempting to go to a race with a 302, one boat, and two propellers to run CSH and 20ssh.

Charlie

[mercguy]

I thought the cost was closer to $2000. Was there a price jump while I wasn't looking?

I think the $3000 figure is correct, considering:

new 302- $2200+ tax and shipping
mods- $800..........blueprint, shave head, gearcase shaped and prop shaft swapped to 9/16.

[mercguy]

reasoning............

Here is a recent email I received demonstrating why we are missing the opportunity to bring competitors into the sport because we do not have new equipment available. Ed.

Hey Mr. Chairman, you sure take a lot of abuse, but I guess you don't take it personally, which is good, as you are doing this position out of your desire to improve racing and some crazy selfless streak, as it probably doesn't pay much. I raced 20ssh and CSR and then S/C, but have now gone on to other things. I went to a race in our region and was shocked to see how few boats there were, and how few new people there were. few pro boats, collection of ancient mod stuff, 3 boat heats. The point of this is, the raging debate about what motor to use is taking place as the last people seem to be leaving the building. It seems to be simply too hard to get someone that is new to boat racing through the wierd process that includes finding an out of production motor, that was worn out years ago (OMC A/J and now the Yamato 80 and 102 I guess) with no spare parts available, some old boat or another that requires the skills of a carpenter to get working and flail around trying to find a prop that works when nobody seems to know what constitutes a "good prop". Jeez, do you wonder why they all go off and buy a go-kart? I went away when I could no longer make the fun vs cost formula work out. Miss it and miss the people, but don't plan to return as long as a worn out 15 hp fishing engine costs 3000.00.

that is not the majority case Mr. Hern! NOW, the reason the people are buying go-carts, motorcycles, snowmobiles, etc to race is because they can FINANCE it all, not so in our small world. It would be nice to be able to go buy a new complete package off the showroom floor AND finance it, but there are just too many variables, but am sure Ed says otherwise..............back to my soap box. This **** is getting ridiculous and I have rigs to build for 2007.........

[mercguy]

seat time..........

Ed you say - "One reason that CSR has had an increase in participation over the last decade and has bucked the trend of decreasing participation that all other SO Classes have is that the 302, which is currently available AND competitive is used in that class. For whatever reason, the 302 simply cannot compete at the important tracks like the 102 in the Hydro class, however, and I hear people telling new potential racers this all the time: "You have to buy a 102 if you want to win in C Hydro."



Ed - You are forgetting a very important factor. The CSR class grew not only for the reason you state but another very important factor is that a CSR rig could be used for the 25ssr class AND be competitive UNTIL last year. A person could buy a 302, run CSR and 25ssr and be competitive in both with the same boat.

One of the reasons people do not get into stock outboard racing is the seat time is extremely short. With the scenario above, you could get 4 heats per day on a weekend. New people want to race, not just sit on the shoreline.

Another item that could be considered is to structure the racing day so people could run more than two heats per class. Of course, because of time limitations, it would probably be necessary to drop a couple of classes for the race day but again new people want to be able to get in as many heats (primarily starts) of racing as possible on a given weekend. This is why it is extremely important to reduce the number of classes run at our races. My son is a very good example of this limited seat time problem. He is a very competitive person but does not want to spend tons of time in preparation without having the opportunity to spent more time racing. So rather than race boats he does snowmobiles. He builds up very fast machines and does grudge matches in the winter and grass drags in the summer.

Now, back to the CSH class. Currently, a 302 rig can be run in both 20ssh and CSH. You claim the 302 is not competitive in CSH. I believe the 302 can be competitive in both CSH and 20ssh and that is based on the FACTS generated from our testing. I have all three engines - 302s, 102s, and 80s. Right now it is a tough to decide which combination of boat and engine to work on for next season because all combinations have the potential to win any race, including the nationals in each class. It is very tempting to go to a race with a 302, one boat, and two propellers to run CSH and 20ssh.

Charlie

Charlie, I agree with you 100%. Most newcomers want to be able to race as much as they can and having (1) rig to race 3 different classes gives them that opportunity. When I first starting racing (20SSH), I got sick of just racing one class and sitting on the shore the rest of the day, thus got a CSH rig and could now run 20SSH (be it restricted 102/302 or not), CSH and if wanted, OSY400.

I will say it again, the 302 is competitive and also in 20SSH being restricted. Mike Perman, the 2006 20SSH hi-points champion ran a restricted 302 and won ALOT of races with it. He did the same in OSY400 (winning with a 302). But, according to KL, the fast West Coast 302's cannot compete with the faster East Coast 102's.....and would have to "steal a start" to even have a chance to win.