SO Yamato Rule Changes

[sam]

To my knowledge the 302 is still in production as THE race motor of Japanese paramutual racing and Ric Montoya can import as many as he can sell. I'm pretty sure for economy of transportation he buys them by the full shipping container per order, probably a hundred or more at a time.

There is no promise of any future for the 302 from Yamato, but since there is no word of its replacement (either upgraded 2 stroke version or the completely new 4 stroke) it is safe to say they will be available for at least 3 or 4 more years, probably much longer.

I think Hyundai is tooling up to make a Korean copy, since the Korean paramutual consortium was turned down when they tried to buy new 302's from Yamato.

The future may be better or worse, but it will be different

[mercguy]

RPM Racing........

To my knowledge the 302 is still in production as THE race motor of Japanese paramutual racing and Ric Montoya can import as many as he can sell. I'm pretty sure for economy of transportation he buys them by the full shipping container per order, probably a hundred or more at a time.

There is no promise of any future for the 302 from Yamato, but since there is no word of its replacement (either upgraded 2 stroke version or the completely new 4 stroke) it is safe to say they will be available for at least 3 or 4 more years, probably much longer.

I think Hyundai is tooling up to make a Korean copy, since the Korean paramutual consortium was turned down when they tried to buy new 302's from Yamato.

The future may be better or worse, but it will be different

Sam, Ric had 55 motors being shipped the last time I was at his place (couple weeks ago) and will be the last shipment he has planned for the next 3yrs. That is what he had estimated on how long the 100 motors would take to sell. He mentioned that the EPA exemption was in question right now though, but could change, but he was sort of doubtful for 2007.

[mercguy]

100 at a time.........

To my knowledge the 302 is still in production as THE race motor of Japanese paramutual racing and Ric Montoya can import as many as he can sell. I'm pretty sure for economy of transportation he buys them by the full shipping container per order, probably a hundred or more at a time.

There is no promise of any future for the 302 from Yamato, but since there is no word of its replacement (either upgraded 2 stroke version or the completely new 4 stroke) it is safe to say they will be available for at least 3 or 4 more years, probably much longer.

I think Hyundai is tooling up to make a Korean copy, since the Korean paramutual consortium was turned down when they tried to buy new 302's from Yamato.

The future may be better or worse, but it will be different

I do not think Ric would spend $100,000+ for motors he knows will sit for a couple years!

[csh2z]

Daren, So your answer is you would buy a 302? So far, 100% of respondents will not quit the class and just buy a 302. If, in 10 or 15 years we need to replace the 302, we can deal with that then. John 2-Z

[Big Don]

I remember in the mid 80's when there was a scare for parts in the Yamato 80's. There was a point where the class just got crushed because of BS like this.

Michael Barrett

Mike, You hit the nail on the head. I was running 20 back then, I sent my GOOD 80 to Mercury as a trade in because the SORC dumped the class overnight and had it worked out with Mercury to trade them in on 25's. Then a few month later the reversed their decision. How many engines were sent to the melting pot? Did we loose any racers? Decision need to be made off facts not personal agenda's/hear say/rumors/yada yada yada...

[Brian10s]

Look at the past

Let's looks at the past for a second.

The 302 has won a national championship, C2. It was introduced as its own class and had enough participation to run at most races. It ran at Nationals and a champion was crowned. The class could have been used as a test bed to improve the overall speeds and make any changes to make the 302 the more dominant motor before it was thrown into the C class at that time. However, the SORC at the time did not want 2 C classes. So, now we have the discussion we have now, Why the 302 hasn't won a Nationals yet. I think Pater made one of the best points yet, "Because the "top guns" have spend years and major money getting every last trick out of their 102's. What incentive do they have to toss out all that research and start over?" Many people have stated that the 302 can compete on 99% of our every day tracks. So, instead of tossing out the most widely owned engine (as Darren pointed out), why not either make an incentive for the 1st 302 National win (like Pater suggested a cash prize) or change the National course to match that of the one that we run on every weekend. Either of these would increase the likleyhood of a 302 victory, without disrupting the #1 class in Stock Outboard to the extent of getting rid of the 102, in 5 years.

I have no problem with changes, just dislike the drastic changes that sometimes are proposed. We always are looking for the homerun ball when a steady diet of singles and doubles would win more times that not. Our Commissions change every year and every year that direction changes, with someone else looking for the homerun ball, the one idea that will return SO to the glory days. Some shots are grand slams, OMC A, for example. But I am sure there are plenty of others that never left the infield.

What is the real issue here? Is the real issue that new production motor should be dominant? If so, fine. However, then why is there a D parity committee & a 25SSR parity committee? Why isn't it a Tohatsu dominance committee and a 25SSR 302 Yamato dominance committee? If the result is to promote new production motors, why isn't the 302 in 20SSH out front? Why isn't there a push to get rid of the 30 yr old 80's? Why are we looking for parity in one class and dominance in another? Why isn't it uniform, across the board?

And lastly, how can we promote a "membership" driven organization on one hand and then state we need a dictator to run our categories on the other - to make the hard decissions that need made? It is correct to state that most drivers vote to protect/ promote their own, personal, agendas, I don't disagree. It is also correct to state that the commission representatives vote to promote their own, personal agenda, whither it helps them personally or not or is for the betterment of the sport or not, is not my point, but just that it is their opinion on what is best. So it does not matter much if it is every drivers agenda or just the representatives agenda - everything is personal. So, on issues as major as the "grandslam" of cutting classes and the direction of the Category and Sport, why aren't the entire membership given a say in the matter. Or at least, know how each of our representatives voted on each issue, that way the membership knows what each representative position on each item.

So, to answer the question of whither I would leave C if the 102 was taken out? I have no idea. Would have to weigh the options and see what is best for me, in the long run. And yes, I have access to both engines right now, so it is not a start up cost issue. Would I suggest a 302 to a new driver, absolutely in a heart beat. Why? Cause unless they have Trump money and can offer Pater or Bowman or Allen or any limited number of "top guns" a deal they can't refuse, and buy the whole rig, the motor difference isn't going to stop them from competiting and doing well every weekend. And that the odds of brand new driver to the sport winning a National championship in the first 2 years, no matter who's equipment they are in, are super long anyway. Super Lottery long.

I would still like to know what we are looking for in all this, what is the final result? What benefit is the 302 being the only motor in the class going to bring the category?

[csh2z]

Mike, I am NOT proposing this senario, just curious as to how many of our current membership would not buy a 302? I see and understand Ed's concern. I guess the question is How do we transition from a current motor to a new motor? Does the new motor always have to out-perform the existing motor? How fast do you want to go in a CSH? We have just gone through this same senario with the Merc vs. OMC in the A class. When Sidewinder comes out with there new A motor will it have to run 60mph to be acceptable? Do we want ASH going faster? Wouldn't we have 2 less classes if the answer is no? We have to find a way to transition from old to new whether we lose some members or not. We also need to be able to identify when a class needs to make a change, We have NO standards, and we have to create them NOW. Why is it so much easier to justify spending $3000. - $4000 on the latest boat design than a motor? Do we Love our motors? What's the difference? John 2-Z

[14J]

Why is it so much easier to justify spending $3000. - $4000 on the latest boat design than a motor? Do we Love our motors? What's the difference? John 2-Z

John-

I'm not sure this statement applies to the general racing population. I’m sure this group can’t justify 3k-4k on the latest boat design either. For someone like myself I agree. If I’m willing to spend money on boats and props every year than I should be open to spending it on new motors. What I can’t do is go out and accomplish both in the same year. This is why I support a phased change (if a change is necessary, that’s another debate). I don’t support knee jerk rule changes to heights, weights, etc. This costs money. Financially you wind up chasing annual rule changes.

Speaking of change, what are our SO commission terms? Are they one year? I wonder if it would be beneficial to us if our SO commission terms were more than one year. I don’t see how we can get anything accomplished with an annual influx of new agendas.

I know some people would disagree with this idea, but I say elect the right people and give them the necessary time to make an impact on our sport.

Troy Gladkowski

[mercguy]

yep......

Daren, So your answer is you would buy a 302? So far, 100% of respondents will not quit the class and just buy a 302. If, in 10 or 15 years we need to replace the 302, we can deal with that then. John 2-Z

I would buy a 302 and that is the reason I am selling my 102's now (mainly because of the simplicity of the 302 (mag, etc) and they are just as fast as 102's)............but, do not think the idea of "delegalizing" the 102 would be a smart idea.......that's all.

[csh2z]

Troy, Good post. Daren, delegalizing the 102 is certainly not on my agenda or anyone elses as far as I know. Unfortunately, we don't currently have a long term plan so we won't know until it happens. As far as I'm concerned 18 of the 20 hrs. we will spend in the meeting room at the Nat'l Mtg. should be spent working only on proposals that deal with these issues rather than trying to micro-manage hot-button issues. We need all commissioners to be prepared to come to this meeting ready to deal with the direction of this sport. We need to be willing to make decisions that are going to piss some people off. I know I'm going to! John 2-Z

[Ron Hill]

Direction of THE SPORT....

I have a 17 year OLD who has been playing water polo for seven years...(7 DAYS A WEEK)...He took this year off, but it appears he may be playing again for four years...

My son has raced kneeldowns twice, this year, because he really wants to RACE 45 in the Western Formula Lights Series, he has raced 45, but I wanted him to have some time in a kneeler under racing conditions......but I have some real questions about my "DECISIONS " as coach...

Well, he's raced kneeldowner twice and been in the water twice.....

He raced 45, fifty three laps and actually beat one or two guys...but he didn't get in the water...

By "getting in the water", I mean, in C Runabout he fell out of the boat... (Went Ass over Tea Kettle) I say fell, because the wheel and throttle were still in the boat, so he didn't get "THROWN OUT". And at Parker, he ran Dawe's number two "A" boat, and managed to turn it over on the second day...

If you go to... www.davidnoelphotography.com check out Angie Rea in C Hydro..... Bottom Line, EVERYONE is going too fast.....

I (Tammy dawe and Jeff Connant, di the work....) pointed this 16 year old girl to an AXS at Parker, she did a fine job of driving...actually... She is capsule trained and 45 is where she'll race.....

The skill needed to drive a kneeldown is way, way off the Bell Curve...Just TOO HARD......for most people.....Where does the new guy go?? A 56 MPH "A" Hydro???? A 60 MPH "C" Runabout??? A 64 MPH 20, that burnes up about every other race???

For a Yamato, Darren, says he can buy a new 302. Why not run this new 302, un-cut foot, just like it was designed....and see how fast it goes at 1" below the bottom.....Then, lower the transom heights, on cut foot 302, to go the same speed and they'd get water....as I'm guessing they'd need to be about 1 1/4 below the bottom...and then do the same with the 102.....

With "HILL RULES" a man could buy a new motor and go race....he wouldn't have to send his foot somewhere and powerhead somewhere and then still get beat by a 102.....



ADD: I'll bet Ernie Dawe has spent more money on his 20 SS Yamato Motor this year...Than Steven Dawe has spent on his 45 since he started racing 45.....Every rebuilt for Dawe's 80, this year was because lack of water...Lake full of water and with 50 years experience he's burned up ????motors....

Lower the transom heights... Slow the boats down!!!!


Oh well, things go along like this for awhile, then they get worse!!!!

[csh2z]

Ron, If we could turn back time, that probably would be the way to go. Hopefully, with some of the new motors coming out we can leave them pure stock. Maybe with the Tohatsu and Sidewinders we can start a new trend.
John 2-Z

[14-H]

so, in your "theoretical thought" you basically **** on the Bass Tohatsu and their efforts (for DSH), but still promote the new Hot Rod (and the old 44XS)............figures.....:***

no really, this is my last response...........

Darren: The Tohatsu would still be legal in the D Mod and FE classes. I didn't forget them.

BTW: As for your responses, you have the second greatest number on this board behind only ADMIN last time I checked. I'm quite sure you're last sentence is not true. Ed.

[14-H]

HeII Yes, right on Ed. I am serious!! I know you were not but that is exactly what I think needs to be done to kneel down racing. I do not expect to see it in my lifetime but it is what I think needs to be done as well. Why are Stock, Mod and Pro three separate categories.....it just does not make sense competitively or financially.

Dean: I'm totally serious. I just know that the SORC, MORC, and Pro Commission would never vote for it and even if they all did, the members wouldn't.

Actually, long about 1987, a proposal similar to this but on a smaller scale was adopted by the Mod Commission to pair down its number of classes (remember 20 Mod Runabout???) when the proposal was made by the Mod Chairman at the time. Of course, he hand-picked a commission that voted it in and it was a phase-out, three year schedule. At the Summer Nationals in Mountain Home Arkansas in 1988 (the first one I ever attended), the Chairman was nearly engaged in two fist fights about this. Of course, at the end of his term, he was quickly voted out of office and some of the changes were un-done (25MH was on the ax for year three, but as is apparent that class was saved). The Chairman's name was Gary Miller. When's the last time you guys have heard of him????

Note to self. Self: You're starting to sound like Ron Hill!

[14-H]

Racer X

Call me. I miss your text messages every other day. Love, Eddie