SO Yamato Rule Changes

[Brian10s]

Brian, To whom would you make that proposal? I believe Stock Outboard could flourish on it's own without Modified at all! Why should we set our standards so low that we need 40+ classes? Is it unreasonable to think that someday the Stock category could be solvent in every Region, or for that matter every state? Do any of you think that this sport is not worthy of success and growth? Did Ray Kroc think that only one McDonalds was good enough? In N.C. there are over 5 million people, Is there any reason to believe that we can't have 100 people out of that 5 million racing Stock Outboard? Don't fall into the trap of thinking too small! John 2-Z

Uh, John . . . I never said Stock could not or would not flourish. I commented on Ed's post on the combination of categories and classes (which I fully understood he had made in jest and to demonstrate a point, as was mine). I do not think my standards are "low" or that I think "small" but can not help to wonder why my comments touched such a nerve. I don't remember knocking Stock in the least.

Kevin,
I agree that all 3 categories have improved their relations recently, but think that is more a function of clubs and drivers then Commissions. And as for your definations, while they are close, there are some points that need to be made. All 3, I would think are truely competitive and all 3 work on their engines (anyone want tell me that all stock motors are as they came from the factory) and that you can buy new equipment and be competitive, without doing anything to it?

I understand the need for change and have listened to everyones ideas with an open mind and will continue to do so. Getting these ideas out in the open is the first step to coming up with a logical plan for the future of racing. I also think that by adding ideas to or showing holes in these ideas is the only way to get the final best result.

[dholt]

Ed, now you're talking!

You're getting closer, 14-H.

That's the first time I've seen you, perhaps jokingly, do***ent some serious change.

Get the ball rolling out there. I'm sure John Runne will too.

How about this instead?


ASH/ASR- OMC and new Hot Rod 'A' when available
BSH- Yamato 80 and plus restricted 102/302
BSR- NEW 20 CI Hot Rod and Merc 25xs
CSH/CSR- 102/302 plus future Yamato if/when available
DSH- Merc 44xs and Tohatsu
25ssH- Merc 25xs and NEW 20ci Hot Rod when available


AMH/AMR- New Hot Rod and old 15ci Hot Rod. NO PIPES but allow more modifications than allowed in stock. Yeah, no pipes! Guranteed the class would be twice as large that way. FAR/FAH never had pipes...and they have been "mod" for 20 years.
BMH- current motors
CMH- current motors
DMH- current motors
FEH- current motors
DMR- current motors
FER- current motors


There you have it. 16 classes. plus JH, JR, AXSH, AXSR. Odds are, most weekend races wouldn't have every class, so you'd have a manageable race schedule most of the time.

Combine the categories and call it Sportsman Outboard Racing. Everyone has a place for current equipment and new stuff. No more "Stock" vs. "Mod" thinking. All in the same family.

[MGallagher]

5 year plan
just a thought....

JR/JH- Current Restricted OMC and Merc
AXSR/AXSH- Merc and Restricted OMC
ASR(Roll-Up Only)/ASH(aka:15SSR/15SSH)- New and Old 15ci Hot Rods
BSR-New and old 20ci Hot Rods and 25XS Restricted on 9'6" boats and Yamato 80 on 10'6" boats (Roll-Up ONLY)
BSH-Yamato 80 and plus restricted 102/302
CSR-102/302 plus future Yamato if/when available and Restricted 44XS Merc and Tahatsu
CSH-102/302 plus future Yamato if/when available
DSH-Merc 44xs and Tohatsu
25SSH- Merc 25XSand 20ci Hot Rods

Allow 25SSR and DSR to run at local races with current rules

Combine Mod with Pro somehow

Matt Gallagher
58J

P.S. Roll-Up ONLY, in all Runabout Classes?????

[Tim Weber]

It's apparent that the west coast really likes the 302 on a hydro as the east coast is 102 territory. Of course, 102 guys want to protect there turf and want no changes.

A couple of suggestions.

1) do nothing
2) see what happens at the winter nationals with the fast, west coast 302's and hopefully some good 102's from the east. If the field is dusted by 102 powered rigs, then have the competition committee make a change
3) make everyone run at 3/4" below the bottom as this would solve cooling issues

Brent & Darren, I am was not complaining about the runabout. My point is there are some good 102's on runabouts and a 102 powered runabout on a big course works. The runabout is not the problem.

I re-opened the thread to try and help out 2 hydro guys in my area.

Tim

[dholt]

Matt,

Some interesting ideas. Not sure how running 25xsh with 20ssH would ever work. About 5 mph faster.

Anyone else?

14-H?
2-Z?
25-M?
10-S?
The real or unreal #4?

[race4kaos]

I'll bite...

My opinion:
These class realigning ideas are only short term countermeasures. They find a place for new engines without adding classes, which is a start. I think they are more of a 1-2 year SO plan. A 5-year plan should include reducing total # of classes more agressively (long term plans should involve categories, but only SO people are talking here).

ASAP:
-combine AX [read:kill]
-kill DSR [read: sorry Josh, get your C running]
-find 25H a new home
-call 20H & 25R the same # name, maybe allowing the same engines

(J,) A, B, C, D should be the goal (maybe without DSR - funny how some rules are followed to a T, and other are ignored. follow the attrition rule or get rid of it.)

I don't care about the specifics. Just make it happen.
BTW, Isn't it hard to place the new engine before more data is available?

As for MO... they have classes to drop too. FA is dying. B & CMR is dead. The noise issue is still left. That prevents SO adding MO in our area (but not MO adding SO). DMH is fastest growing class in the country. Learn how and why.
I'm done now...

(my luck... Howie N. might go 120 racing taking my #4 off my new ride. then i'll mearly be a 4 wannabe)

[BP125V]

New guys

Tim,

by all means have those two guys get 302's. Here is why.

1) Brand new engine with parts available.
2) Proven design, reliable etc.
3) Price is right.
4) 302's can win. you know in our sport it comes down to boat, set up, props, testing, driving etc.

if a guy puts some real effort into a 302 CSH rig he can win most of the races he enters in. I think it is foolish for a guy off the street to worry about his engine having that extra 1/2 mph at the end of the straight at a Wakefield. He only needs to worry about it if he has a great boat, great props, knows how to test and does in fact go testing, can drive well and can get great starts, which he won't.

lame analogy here. not racing because you want a great used 102 over a brand new 302 is like a Nextel Cup driver turning down a ride in a Rousch Ford since Jimmy Johnson won the championship in a Chevy.

get these guys on the water first and let them get some racing time under their belts before they worry about winning a nationals. They can have a ton of fun learning how to race and win with a 302. Take it one step at a time.

Bill III

[f8andbethere]

first off, there are not many "NEWCOMERS" that can enter our sport and buy all new equipment.
So why is that??? Why can folks afford to purchase a new motorcycle, go-kart, snomobile, etc and not a new raceboat? That is a part of what is wrong with the sport.......

I know I could not when I started. The thing that brought me in is that you could buy good used equipment at a good price and might not be the fastest, but newcomers really should not have the fastest equipment when they start. They need to learn how to drive first (which there is still alot of racers that can't!), then they need to know how to compete. They then will learn what class most interests them and go from there. After all that is said and done, they CAN go buy new equipment if they want, motors are available for A/20/C/D, etc. You actually think you can go buy a new motorcycle or go-cart and win right off the bat..not gonna happen. You think Ricky Carmichael, etc races a "stock, off the show room floor" motorcycle............ya right! Same goes for super bikes, the guys that are winning races are probably racing $100,000 if not more, bikes that you CANNOT buy off the showroom floor. Our level of boat racing is no where near the other sports you have mentioned and most do not want it to be that way......

Again you do not understand -- the majority of races that are sanctioned by the AMA as an example are amatuer on any Sunday events that are o different than going to a stock outboard race. These folks can simply go to a shop and buy the latest and greatest from the factory floor. They don't have to settle for hand-me-downs from another racer. Certainly folks getting started often will buy a used machine-- but the point is they do not have to. To reiterate, I am not talking about professional level racing -- but rather on-any sunday amateur racing

[Dr. Thunder]

Bill wins ...

Tim,

by all means have those two guys get 302's. Here is why.

1) Brand new engine with parts available.
2) Proven design, reliable etc.
3) Price is right.
4) 302's can win. you know in our sport it comes down to boat, set up, props, testing, driving etc.

if a guy puts some real effort into a 302 CSH rig he can win most of the races he enters in. I think it is foolish for a guy off the street to worry about his engine having that extra 1/2 mph at the end of the straight at a Wakefield. He only needs to worry about it if he has a great boat, great props, knows how to test and does in fact go testing, can drive well and can get great starts, which he won't.
<snip>

get these guys on the water first and let them get some racing time under their belts before they worry about winning a nationals. They can have a ton of fun learning how to race and win with a 302. Take it one step at a time.

Bill III

Bill wins with the best response yet on this thread ... at least one of the most logical in terms of good advice for someone looking to get started in outboard racing!
Neal

[mercguy]

more opportunities...........

Again you do not understand -- the majority of races that are sanctioned by the AMA as an example are amatuer on any Sunday events that are o different than going to a stock outboard race. These folks can simply go to a shop and buy the latest and greatest from the factory floor. They don't have to settle for hand-me-downs from another racer. Certainly folks getting started often will buy a used machine-- but the point is they do not have to. To reiterate, I am not talking about professional level racing -- but rather on-any sunday amateur racing

again, you cannot compare our sport to something like motorcycle racing. A guy can go buy a NEW motorcycle, race it or whatever and still can go just about anywhere to ride it, be it the mountains, desert, track, etc. So, that gives the manufacturers a bigger "window" for sales. Our level of boat racing is completely different. You can't go run your race boat on any water way you like and the ones you can, most have speed limits and the others are way too rough for our boats to go in. This is probably why there are no mass produced race boat motors for us (yet) in the US, cause it just ain't profitable for the manufacturers. While I understand your concern and statements, you pretty much cannot compare our sport to another type of motorsport............

[csh2z]

This thread is a perfect example.........

of why we are in this situation to begin with. How many times have I heard "just put it to a vote for the drivers of the class to decide". The drivers of the class will only vote based on "what is best for me". We can't seem to face the fact that what may be best for the future of the sport may NOT BE what is best for me. If we take an honest look at what is most important to the future of the sport, we the current membership, are NOT at the top of the list. I'm curious, If I were the dictator of the C Stock Hydro class, the 102 would no longer be a legal motor begining in 2010. Tell me what would YOU do if this were to occur. I don't want to know what you think will happen overall(don't speak for others). Will you buy a 302 ASAP, or quit racing, or change classes? John 2-Z

[14J]

of why we are in this situation to begin with. How many times have I heard "just put it to a vote for the drivers of the class to decide". The drivers of the class will only vote based on "what is best for me". We can't seem to face the fact that what may be best for the future of the sport may NOT BE what is best for me. If we take an honest look at what is most important to the future of the sport, we the current membership, are NOT at the top of the list. I'm curious, If I were the dictator of the C Stock Hydro class, the 102 would no longer be a legal motor begining in 2010. Tell me what would YOU do if this were to occur. I don't want to know what you think will happen overall(don't speak for others). Will you buy a 302 ASAP, or quit racing, or change classes? John 2-Z

John-

Speaking for myself I would start planning for the future. I believe the 102 should not be regulated, however it should be phased out much like the Merc 30H. This eases the financial impact on those who have money vested and continue to spend money on a 102 program.

Troy Gladkowski

[14J]

302

Can anyone tell me if the 302 is still in production? Can it be imported? Will we be right back where the 102's have us in the next 5-10 years? Is the 302 part of stock outboard's long term motor strategy?

[mercguy]

of why we are in this situation to begin with. How many times have I heard "just put it to a vote for the drivers of the class to decide". The drivers of the class will only vote based on "what is best for me". We can't seem to face the fact that what may be best for the future of the sport may NOT BE what is best for me. If we take an honest look at what is most important to the future of the sport, we the current membership, are NOT at the top of the list. I'm curious, If I were the dictator of the C Stock Hydro class, the 102 would no longer be a legal motor begining in 2010. Tell me what would YOU do if this were to occur. I don't want to know what you think will happen overall(don't speak for others). Will you buy a 302 ASAP, or quit racing, or change classes? John 2-Z

John, yes, the racers would vote "what is best for them", that is what voting is all about, same as any type of voting.

but, the idea of making the 102 no longer a legal motor by 2010, would seriously bring big problems:

1) the 102 is the most owned motor in stock outboard racing. There are more 102's out there than any other brand of race motor. I bet each racer that owns a 102 has probably 2 of them, if not 3, some have more. You would be eliminating the biggest motor (production and owned) in SO at the present time. Correct me, if I am mistaken.

2) yes, the push is to move to the 302, which is very understandeable, but there are issues with that motor also. Ric Montoya told me he will have 100 302's by the end of the year, in stock. Why so many I asked, cause the EPA has not and might not renew the "exemption" the motor has for "racing use only". Now that could have changed in the last couple weeks, but still brings up the point. So, if no more 2stroke Yamato engines were allowed to be imported into the US, what would happen, after you have eliminated the 102 for the stock ranks. If we all had to switch over to 302's, 100 motors would not last long.

this does not relate to the 102 vs. 302 debate Ed brought up.....

[mercguy]

Can anyone tell me if the 302 is still in production? Can it be imported? Will we be right back where the 102's have us in the next 5-10 years? Is the 302 part of stock outboard's long term motor strategy?

you read my mind, I just posted info on this.