SO Yamato Rule Changes

[14-H]

***
Look at other forms of motorsports -- specifically motorcycles, jet skis, snomobiles, and go-karts. ***or not.

The problem with your comparison is three-fold. First, in those motorsports organizations, the members do not get to vote on the rules and therefore you don't have the "protectionism" going on like the responses you see to my questions here on this board and the voting that occurs at SORC meetings.

Second, those organizations race a product that is used in consumer production models. We don't really do that. Our equipment used to be a consumer model that is bastardized. But now, it is not legal to do that any more and even if it were, the current consumer models are way too heavy for what we do.

Third, no matter what system of encentives is in place, if the product is not "perceived" as being able to be made competitive, no one will want to buy it, I don't care what Darren says.

BTW: Here's the track record for the Stock Category for the last "generation":

1. SORC requested the APBA BOD to make available an engine for the A Stock Class. APBA BOD did this and created the Mercury A racing engine. SORC refused to implement any changes to make the engine competive. No one will buy this engine for the A class.

2. Bass Machines submits proposed brand new D engine in a class that had equipment and parts currently available only in refurbished or aftermarket condition with dwindling participation. SORC creates long delays for implementation of legal status for this engine and, after finally granting approval for legal status, handicaps the engine so it cannot be competitive. Thereafter, Stock Outboard members boycott the class.

3. Yamato 202 and 302 has been available in the US for nearly 20 years. Stock Outboard never approved the 202 and waited over five years to legalize the 302 but when finally introduced, it was placed into a separate class.

I hope John Runne's proposals are good ones. They would need to counter act the extremely hostile atmosphere this category has created for people interested in developing new equipment for it.

Ed Hearn- beholden to the SORC

[14-H]

***

Are we going to go on forever with ASH, ASR, BSH, BSR, CSH, CSR, DSH, DSR,
20SSH, 25SSH, 25SSR?

Does AXSH and AXSR really belong in the 'J' category? Why??? There are 60 year old men racing in the "Junior" category. Yes, there are kids....but they aren't 9 year olds.

Why is a class that hasn't had more than 20 participants (DSR) since prior to 1997 still receiving National recognition?

I hope some of these items make the agenda.

Wish I could be there. I would wrote a comprehensive restructuring plan but will not submit as my presence there would be necessary to fully explain. Plus, more info is needed from Hot Rod to fully complete the plan. Hope they have some timelines ready to present in LA.


Dana

How's this?

We should eliminate FAR and FAH, put the restrictor in the OMC's in the ASH & ASR classes, get rid of AXSH & R, put the new Hot Rod in BSR and BSH along with the Y-80 in BSH with a 1" height restriction; choke down the old H/R's in this class but keep them legal, get rid of AMR & AMH but let those engines run in B Mod or C stock, eliminate BMR, 20SSH and 25SSR, keep B Mod Hydro and combine it with 25SSH, I don't care what you call the class; legalize the 202 in C Stock and C Mod, get rid of C Mod Runabout (take the pipe off and run it in CSR), keep CSR and make the 44XS a legal engine for participation only at local events; combine DMR and FEH, get rid of DSH but legalize the stock 44XS in CMH and keep DMH and FEH. Get rid of K Pro and OSY 400.

Then, combine stock and mod for only one commission. Next year, do the same thing with PRO but keep a separate true "alky" set of classes with 4 runabouts and 4 hydro classes. Move the antiques to the classic category.

Let's see, will the members vote for this?

[14-H]

How's this?

***

Let's see, will the members vote for this?

I think I got enough in there to piss everyone off. No, wait! I left out the restrictions on the 102's so those guys are happy. But then again, I suggested putting in the 202 which everyone knows is faster than the 102 right out of the box so, on second thought, I'm sure everyone hates this idea.

You tell me that it wouldn't work, though...

[RICK BIRD]

[QUOTE=14-H;68451]I think I got enough in there to piss everyone off. No, wait!

ED
LOL YOU DO KNOW HOW TO STIR IT UP.

RICHARD J BIRD

[mercguy]

really Ed!

The problem with your comparison is three-fold. First, in those motorsports organizations, the members do not get to vote on the rules and therefore you don't have the "protectionism" going on like the responses you see to my questions here on this board and the voting that occurs at SORC meetings.

Second, those organizations race a product that is used in consumer production models. We don't really do that. Our equipment used to be a consumer model that is bastardized. But now, it is not legal to do that any more and even if it were, the current consumer models are way too heavy for what we do.

Third, no matter what system of encentives is in place, if the product is not "perceived" as being able to be made competitive, no one will want to buy it, I don't care what Darren says.

BTW: Here's the track record for the Stock Category for the last "generation":

1. SORC requested the APBA BOD to make available an engine for the A Stock Class. APBA BOD did this and created the Mercury A racing engine. SORC refused to implement any changes to make the engine competive. No one will buy this engine for the A class.

2. Bass Machines submits proposed brand new D engine in a class that had equipment and parts currently available only in refurbished or aftermarket condition with dwindling participation. SORC creates long delays for implementation of legal status for this engine and, after finally granting approval for legal status, handicaps the engine so it cannot be competitive. Thereafter, Stock Outboard members boycott the class.

3. Yamato 202 and 302 has been available in the US for nearly 20 years. Stock Outboard never approved the 202 and waited over five years to legalize the 302 but when finally introduced, it was placed into a separate class.

I hope John Runne's proposals are good ones. They would need to counter act the extremely hostile atmosphere this category has created for people interested in developing new equipment for it.

Ed Hearn- beholden to the SORC

Ed says "Third, no matter what system of encentives is in place, if the product is not "perceived" as being able to be made competitive, no one will want to buy it, I don't care what Darren says."

so with you being our "stock outboard chairman", what are you planning to do about the #1 and #2 statements you just made??? Are you saying the SORC is responsible for the detriment of stock outboard racing?

[mercguy]

no, not pissed at all...........

I think I got enough in there to piss everyone off. No, wait! I left out the restrictions on the 102's so those guys are happy. But then again, I suggested putting in the 202 which everyone knows is faster than the 102 right out of the box so, on second thought, I'm sure everyone hates this idea.

You tell me that it wouldn't work, though...

but just curious why you are so animate about screwing with the CSH class and not the others that truly need help or do you personally not want any of the classes YOU race to be messed with? Let's see, make up the ballot petition on your 302 thoughts, submit it to the current racers in the class and I will bet it will get shot down, so no need to keep "beatin' on a dead horse". Enough said by me, as you really are not listening anyways Ed...........see ya ....

[csh12M]

Right on Ed

HeII Yes, right on Ed. I am serious!! I know you were not but that is exactly what I think needs to be done to kneel down racing. I do not expect to see it in my lifetime but it is what I think needs to be done as well. Why are Stock, Mod and Pro three separate categories.....it just does not make sense competitively or financially.

[mercguy]

pipe dream!

How's this?

We should eliminate FAR and FAH, put the restrictor in the OMC's in the ASH & ASR classes, get rid of AXSH & R, put the new Hot Rod in BSR and BSH along with the Y-80 in BSH with a 1" height restriction; choke down the old H/R's in this class but keep them legal, get rid of AMR & AMH but let those engines run in B Mod or C stock, eliminate BMR, 20SSH and 25SSR, keep B Mod Hydro and combine it with 25SSH, I don't care what you call the class; legalize the 202 in C Stock and C Mod, get rid of C Mod Runabout (take the pipe off and run it in CSR), keep CSR and make the 44XS a legal engine for participation only at local events; combine DMR and FEH, get rid of DSH but legalize the stock 44XS in CMH and keep DMH and FEH. Get rid of K Pro and OSY 400.

Then, combine stock and mod for only one commission. Next year, do the same thing with PRO but keep a separate true "alky" set of classes with 4 runabouts and 4 hydro classes. Move the antiques to the classic category.

Let's see, will the members vote for this?

so, in your "theoretical thought" you basically **** on the Bass Tohatsu and their efforts (for DSH), but still promote the new Hot Rod (and the old 44XS)............figures.....

no really, this is my last response...........

[drbyrne55]

Hmmmm....

1. If the chairman wants to understand new members .... ask new members. I have just had my APBA application processed and attempting to put together CSH/OSY/20 hydro using a 302.
2. Secondly, it seems 302 owners have spoken ... I thought I heard most 302 owners say ... no changes needed nor wanted.



Ed, feel free to call me.

206-856-9330
253-255-6708

Regards, Dan

[Al Peffley]

Water Pickup and the Future of 2-cycle Motors

All - If one Yamato motor model gets this advantage for C-stock racing, then ALL Yamato C-stock "used" motors (they all come to us USED from Japan!) should be allowed the advantage (with a CSH height restriction, based on the true bottom of the racing boat.) OSY doesn't need to get in this water pickup rule "food fight" because (as someone else has stated) it does not have a height or weight restriction, AND it is in a PRO/UIM category (at least for now).

The 102's will retire from old age (like me) and lack of parts eventually, with or without all of this talk. I race in Region 10 and I can "stick" my 102 with the best of the 302's if I have the wrong setup and prop...I watch Wart stick his old 102's all of the time (LOL), but he still comes out to beat the young guys occasionally at races around here when he gets the parts he needs!

We need an APBA-approved source for replacement mag coils and pistons -- aftermarket parts should be allowed for all three motor models in a few years (if all of these aging 2-cycle motors are allowed to continue stock outboard racing in the US.) I think the EPA and our lakes being poisoned by ecology imbalances are bigger future "threats" to 2-cycle outboard racing and racing entry costs for equipment than a self-induced , cooling issue!

Al Peffley
15-R (when running my 102's in CSH or CMod)

[Charlie Pater]

[QUOTE=14-H;68369]Okay, here's my attempt to phrase this question as delicately as possible without offending my good friends in Region 10 upon a matter that is completely legitimate (I'm serious!) and solely related to whether the 102 is faster than the 302 and in no way reflects any bias, prejudice or preconceived notions about east coast versus west coast drivers (remember, I'm from the midwest and not from either the east or the west), truly posed only for the purpose of continuing this important discussion and only in response to these posts about all the fast 302's in Region 10, but I'm going to ask this question 'cause I think it's a fair one and I only mean it in that manner:

When is the last time any of those fast Region 10 302's have won the CSH Nationals?



Ed - I believe the way to encourage a 302 to win the nationals is to put a carrot out there. The SORC could put up a purse of $2,000.00 to the winner of the CSH nationals IF a 302 is used to win. I think you would be amazed at how much work would be done on 302 outfits.

I also think all this bickering would end.

Charlie

[Brian10s]

How's this?

We should eliminate FAR and FAH, put the restrictor in the OMC's in the ASH & ASR classes, get rid of AXSH & R, put the new Hot Rod in BSR and BSH along with the Y-80 in BSH with a 1" height restriction; choke down the old H/R's in this class but keep them legal, get rid of AMR & AMH but let those engines run in B Mod or C stock, eliminate BMR, 20SSH and 25SSR, keep B Mod Hydro and combine it with 25SSH, I don't care what you call the class; legalize the 202 in C Stock and C Mod, get rid of C Mod Runabout (take the pipe off and run it in CSR), keep CSR and make the 44XS a legal engine for participation only at local events; combine DMR and FEH, get rid of DSH but legalize the stock 44XS in CMH and keep DMH and FEH. Get rid of K Pro and OSY 400.

Then, combine stock and mod for only one commission. Next year, do the same thing with PRO but keep a separate true "alky" set of classes with 4 runabouts and 4 hydro classes. Move the antiques to the classic category.

Let's see, will the members vote for this?

Ed,
In following your train of thought, wouldn't make more sence to eliminate Stock Outboard and move all stock classes into Modified? Call it the Kneeldown Outboard. All stock classes already have a home in Mod, in some fashion (except the 25XSH which has only been probational in CMH) and all stock motors are already legal motors in Mod (where as not all Modified motors are legal in Stock and I think we all can agree that it is easier to unstock a motor than unmodify one). Then, adopt the MORC rule where each driver votes on proposals for their class and are then responsible for the health & welfare of their own class. Set a national level for participation to be considered a National class and 75% of your issues are done.

Would you like a proposal on this or is this something you could handle on your own?

[csh2z]

Brian, To whom would you make that proposal? I believe Stock Outboard could flourish on it's own without Modified at all! Why should we set our standards so low that we need 40+ classes? Is it unreasonable to think that someday the Stock category could be solvent in every Region, or for that matter every state? Do any of you think that this sport is not worthy of success and growth? Did Ray Kroc think that only one McDonalds was good enough? In N.C. there are over 5 million people, Is there any reason to believe that we can't have 100 people out of that 5 million racing Stock Outboard? Don't fall into the trap of thinking too small! John 2-Z

[race4kaos]

Too many problems to solve at once...

SO, MO, & PRO have been 'playing' together more and more in recent years. Combined races make sense when putting on events. But don't make the false assumption that the categories and classes could ever be combined under the current APBA structure.

-SO people want normal people to be able to buy new stuff and compete. They like their engines quiet. They are truly competitive people. And they want to grow to be huge like in the hay day (although when it comes down to it, they are not willing to sacrifice anything to get there).
-MO people love their pipes. The bigger, louder, faster, the better. More are motor guys. They don't mind racing with SO, but don't care to be called a Stocker. Many also don't see the need for huge growth. Most can't even test anywhere anymore, but don't really view that as a big problem.
-PRO is in their own world. I won't pretend to understand the people, but I know enough not to make an attempt to combine them with SO & MO. They are the true thrill seekers on the water, the real guru's in the shop, and simply bore-n-stroke diehards. I think some rather die than change.

Of course not everyone fits the category label. Some even compete across all 3 categories. But the only way Ed's plan (which is simply an evolution from Gary Miller's old plan that was shot down) could work is if APBA empowered a Kneeldown Chairman to do it, and take the voting power away from the members. And I actually agree with Ed and Dean that this would be the best thing for kneeldown racing.
I think there are too many selfish people racing for it to happen in the current structure. 10S's comments are logical, but a good example. A SO can convert to a MO, 'so come run with us'. But racing can't grow if all motors become modified. Then no one would be able to simply buy new equipment and race competitively.
I'm not picking on Brian (he's as much SO as he is MO). When I owned more equipment and was trying the beat the top dog in my class year after year, I didn't want anything in my world to change either. But as someone looking more from the outside now, it is easy to see there are too many small classes, not enough new equipment available, and change needs to happen or the sport will continue to slowly, but surely dwindle away.

It's too bad Dana was fertile (lol) [and is busy with his new family]. I think his vision and approach is exactly what is needed. I hate to admit that Ed's plan (maybe not the detail, but the concept) is right on. But his approach/method is terrible - it's too easy to dislike him (lol, again).

I agree, the 102 vs. 302 is a non-issue (not because I don't want change [I could care less], but because it's not broke).
Instead, rejuvenate the sport you love. Accept change. Do you want your children and/or grandchildren to win the Nationals 20 years down the road in one of the 30 classes that only has 20 drivers throughout the country or one of 10 classes that has 200 drivers? Choice is yours (for now)...

[stu_racing]

To be honest guys, I'm frankly sick of this subject, but yet I still get lured into the trap.
I run a Y302, but I do not promote changing the rules to favor the Y302. The only rule I would change is to allow an external water pick-up. But no matter if the water pick-up is allowed or not I know I will continue to work my butt off to do well, whether it be at our local races or nationals (when I can scrape up the money to go, due to college taking all my extra funds now). But as a Y302 CSH racer, I don't want anything handed to me because when I do start winning it will be that much sweeter.
So I'll say this, I'll work on my motor, hull, and props, and hope by next season i'm winning because I worked at it over the winter, like all the top guys do, and you guys will still be on here discussing something that wasn't even requested by Y302 drivers, publicly on this forum.