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321 Yamato in 302SSH

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  • #16
    Its the easy choice, not necessarily the good choice.... if the 321 proves faster, then everyone that invested in the 302 needs to upgrade (presumably on their dime) and if the 302 proves faster than no one else gets one except the 30 that are out there. Now the class has two engines so you cant tell a RS new name the all the equipment in 100% identical. We need to explain the engine mess, like every other class in the sport. Additionally you now enter ideas like parity into the class. Even if the engines were the same, perception based on who is currently winning enters into the equation.

    I believe we took a big step back in the class and really hurt a lot of what made it great. All we needed to do was determine a way to upgrade the 302 to 321 and I was advocating that SO should help the upgrade path. The decision made was the easy decision and the path of least resistance, and what the sport always does, its not the right decision.
    Last edited by csh12M; 12-07-2015, 08:06 AM.



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    • #17
      Kind of confused here. What is the difference between this 300 class and a CSH class. It seems liker a CSH class is a modified stock engine. So a 300 class can run a CSH but a CSH can't run in the 300 class.

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      • #18
        Dean and everyone else. I will speak for myself being a member of the SORC. I think most on the SORC will agree with me on this though.

        It should be a 1 engine class but not knowing how engine availability is going to be, and seeing how we have been waiting about 3 years or so for the 5 engines Montoya has...I did not want to put a time limit on it until we know we can support what ever decision we make on time. We did know that we had to make the 321 a legal engine since that is the only engine you can get if you can purchase one.
        "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

        Don Allen

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        • #19
          Well to do a 302 to 321 conversion you would need a 321 airbox and midtower. The midtower would be about $400 don't know about the airbox (don't know if it's even available), may also need a new carb to match the airbox because I thought I saw somewhere that the mounting flange on the 302 and 321 carbs were a different dimension. Another option would be to just sell your 302 and purchase a new 321. Perhaps a phaseout will be needed if 302's are doing all the winning since only new 321's are available. Given the testing that was done with both motors (Joe Pater), there will probably be mixed results, each motor winning its share of races. Regions that are just starting to run this class won't have this concern of 2 motors. I also hear you on the $$$ end but no one knew that yamato was changing the engine. As far as the difference between 300 SSH and CSH? Here it is. The 300 class is box stock, sealed engine. CSH is anything but stock, engine blueprinting is allowed and anything else you think you can get away with. People would like to think stock engines are stock but they are anything but. A, B, C, D and 20 all fall in this latter category.

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          • #20
            I will also say this. I no longer support the SORC helping fund the change over from a 302 to a 321. If the parts can be obtained it sounds like it's under 500.00. This sport is not free and 500.00 does not seem out of line to upgrade ones engine if needed.
            "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

            Don Allen

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            • #21
              The current cost for an upgrade kit from a 302 to 321 is almost 500.00. (Not sure where you get your numbers deeougee) With over thirty 302 engines purchased for the class, how could the SORC purchase these for the class? Our promotional funds are built by all drivers in all classes. The expenditure of 15,000.00 would be incredibly unfair to the rest of the classes participants and would pretty much empty the budget for the year.
              Between my wife Christine and I we have raced the class for three years and haven't purchased a single propeller. So, the 500.00 upgrade cost is a drop the bucket if we need to go in that direction and were still money ahead.
              http://www.stockoutboard.com/
              Email: stockoutboard@apba.org

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              • #22
                Jeff my numbers were derived from the Yamato UK website. However, my exchange numbers were wrong and I don't know exactly what is in the conversion kit. Can you clarify for everyone what exactly is in the kit and how is this kit being made available? This brings me to another question? If the kit is only $500 why didn't SORC make current 302 owners convert to the 321specs? This would have ensured everyone is playing with the same motor. I also understand the cost before anyone gets to excited ok, but $500 in this sport is cheap relatively speaking when you start spending money in other parts of your racing program.

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                • #23
                  Don, Quote - "It should be a 1 engine class but not knowing how engine availability is going to be, and seeing how we have been waiting about 3 years or so for the 5 engines Montoya has...I did not want to put a time limit on it until we know we can support what ever decision we make on time. We did know that we had to make the 321 a legal engine since that is the only engine you can get if you can purchase one."

                  Response:
                  This comment makes total sense. If the dual motor philosophy is a "stop gap" answer to an engine availability problem then I can understand the decision. As it was communicated though it is very unclear that is the intent. If it is, I think a communication stating that "it is the intent to get the 300SSH class back to one motor as soon as engine availability can support it" would go a long way with the current 300SSH racers.

                  Jeff, Quote - "The current cost for an upgrade kit from a 302 to 321 is almost 500.00. (Not sure where you get your numbers deeougee) With over thirty 302 engines purchased for the class, how could the SORC purchase these for the class? Our promotional funds are built by all drivers in all classes. The expenditure of 15,000.00 would be incredibly unfair to the rest of the classes participants and would pretty much empty the budget for the year.
                  Between my wife Christine and I we have raced the class for three years and haven't purchased a single propeller. So, the 500.00 upgrade cost is a drop the bucket if we need to go in that direction and were still money ahead. "

                  Response:
                  Several times I proposed a sliding scale for the upgrade. Anyone owning a motor since year 1 gets 0 - year 2 gets 25%, year 3 gets 50%. This would cut your number in half $7,000 or less and that assumes that we all would do it. If I can get a 321 I am just going to break the seals on my 302. I know of at least one other team that would do the same. We were probably looking at $5K or less. I can surely justify that expense to the SORC as this is the class we send all Racer School grads to. This class more than anything else the SORC could spend its promotional money on supports and grows the whole category. Additionally, the SORC could petition the Historical society and asked to "split" the cost. I expect at least a 50/50 chance they would. The SORC just advocated the selling of sealed 302 last year and now you tell that same guy the "upgrade" is on him....that does not seem fair.

                  Having two different motors in the class is a big deal - it destroys the whole premise. If it is a temp fix, I totally get it - but lets communicate that and think about the time frame or motor inventory thresholds to get back to one motor. We don't want to be in the same scenario next year.





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                  • #24
                    This subject has been discussed and discussed. There are strong beliefs on both sides. In the end I believe the committee made a prudent decision.
                    Last edited by Charlie Pater; 12-08-2015, 02:17 AM. Reason: Spelling

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                    • #25
                      A few thoughts. First: I am the person on the 300SSH committee that made the proposal to allow the 321 into the class with no restrictions. I was my premise that let's see what happens in 2016 in regards to parity. Any negativity thrown towards Jeff is misguided......there are 7 people on the committee with Jeff voting only in case of a tie. We have been agonizing...and I mean agonizing over this thing for months. There was just no way to do it in my opinion other then what we did....allow the 321 into class with no restrictions. Also, keep in mind that the 300SSH committee does NOT make the rules...all we do is make recommendations to the SORC. I was not on the phone call last wed, but I understand that they approved the 321 with everybody voting yes. Race motors are all almost obsolete when they come out of the factory.....changes are made every single year to improve performance etc. When I raced the 44XS in DSH, there were updates every single year they were produced. Yet, the same basic motor was called the 44XS from 1987 to 1992. Same thing with the Yamato 302....it has been changed and upgraded over the years....but no model number change. It is my gut feeling that if the 321 had come out with the minor changes it has and was still called the 302 nobody would have noticed. See you all in Chicago. 13 US

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                      • #26
                        The question I am asking that has not been communicated clearly yet. Is this a temporary stop gap while we have motor availability issues or are we always going to have two motors in this class? The word parity should not be part of this classes discussion, it defeats the whole purpose of the class. I am not directing any negativity towards Jeff or anyone else. I am not sure how you are getting that vibe, but I was refuting his statements about the cost of upgrading and whether SORC funds could/should be used. I applaud all who donate their time, but I don't think that should limit the exchange of thoughts and ideas. I believe the sliding scale could of helped the existing racers some of which we (the category) just sold motors to.



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                        • #27
                          Are the 321 motors coming in only for the 300ssh now or can you buy one for csh,csr,osy400 ?????????????????
                          Tom



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                          • #28
                            Dean, I’m only speaking for myself at this time.

                            I was going to vote NO on this because I 100% believe this should be a 1 engine class. I believe there should be a deadline of when that is going to happen. Even if the engines run darn close to identical on the course, with there clearly being a difference in looks and sound we cannot have any perceived differences. Once I heard that Ricky only had 5 engines and that Mike Ward was not expecting his shipment until around June, I quickly changed my mind on how I was voting. Not having engines available for the class to grow is worse in my opinion.

                            The problem is, what do we do for a date of when it will be a 1 engine class.

                            If we said 1 year or 2 years and we can'’t meet that deadline, then what? Change it again? My thoughts and comment on the conference calls were this…, let’s make the 321 a legal engine and then figure out what we are going to do about availability and a date. The problem as I see it is the 321’s are also legal in our other Yamato classes so even if Ricky got let’s say 25 engines. We can’t allocate them all to the 300SS class. Heck, at this rate it might take 5 years to get enough engines. Plus my understanding is Europe is going to need engines and we may not be able to get enough out of Rick or Mike in 2 years. It’s just not known yet.

                            We are not sure if we can get 35 conversion kits at the time of the call and hopefully we get that info soon or by Chicago. If Mike Ward says he can have 40 kits available for the class by Chicago I would vote for 11/1/16. If it’s less than 500.00 like we were told (and I believe the source) I don’t think that is out of line. I know it’s a bummer to have to put another 500.00 in an engine that may only be a year old but unfortunately that is the cost of racing.

                            With that all said, my opinion is, if a person races the 302SSH class they should plan on having to upgrade their current 302 engine or purchasing a 321 engine. Just to when that date is…stay tuned. Once again that is my opinion and not the entire SORC’s opinion.
                            Last edited by Big Don; 12-08-2015, 09:35 AM.
                            "Ask anyone, I have no friends. I do have some people that put up with me and mostly because they like the rest of my family"

                            Don Allen

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                            • #29
                              I think u have it right Don.

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                              • #30
                                Don, thank you for the thorough communication. I agree with all points of your thought process and that makes the decision to include both motors make more sense. I think you response "word for word" should be better communicated to all the 300H as the direction SORC is heading. The inclusion is because of a motor availability problem and not a belief that two motors should be in the class any longer than necessary. Thank you for taking the time to communicate it in more detail.



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