175ccH Motors

[Rex Hall]

125/175

The 125 motors put out aproximately 48 HP, and the 175 about 56 HP.

[Tom Cronk]

Email

Mike
Check your emails on hydroracer.
Tom

[Danny Pigott]

Trim

Is the GRM trim system, up / down in / out, or both.

[pro350hydro]

Is the GRM trim system, up / down in / out, or both.

Up and down only. It's a nice setup

[1977 ASH]

The 125 motors put out aproximately 48 HP, and the 175 about 56 HP.

Wow - pretty cool. You guys should be able to really get those things ripping. We had the 125cc road racer 54mm X 54mm Jimmy Hallum Yamaha going 82-83 mph at the end of the Kilos back in 1976 with only about 31-32 hp. With 48 hp, it would clearly accelerate much more quickly and should get up over 90 mph.

With 56 hp, a 175 cch should be able to get pretty close to 100mph as that is about the same hp that Jimmy Hallum and Gerry Walin's B Anzani put out in the late 60's - early 70's.

Mark

[blueskyracer]

Just for everones info see the new GRM ad on the right side of the portal page of HR.

[pro350hydro]

Wow - pretty cool. You guys should be able to really get those things ripping. We had the 125cc road racer 54mm X 54mm Jimmy Hallum Yamaha going 82-83 mph at the end of the Kilos back in 1976 with only about 31-32 hp. With 48 hp, it would clearly accelerate much more quickly and should get up over 90 mph.

You guys must have missed all the record runs. The record for 125cc hydro in 1982 was-
76.184 MPH
Class 04200 - 125CCH Sunday, April 4, 1982 Record Type KILO
Location MOORE HAVEN, FL Driver JOHN A. STEVENS Owner JOHN A. STEVENS
Boat F-55 Hull Type BUNKY Engine QUINCY


Here is the current record for 125cc hydro-
84.32 MPH
Class 04200 - 125CCH Saturday, March 3, 2007 Record Type KILO
Location OROVILLE, CA Driver BOB WARTINGER Owner BOB WARTINGER
Boat KINESIS Hull Type SORENSEN Engine HALL/ROSSI

With 56 hp, a 175 cch should be able to get pretty close to 100mph as that is about the same hp that Jimmy Hallum and Gerry Walin's B Anzani put out in the late 60's - early 70's.

The 175cc isn't even close to 100. That is nearly comp speeds for 350cc hydro. And the Kilo records for each are 350cch Hydro is 113.408 and 250cch hydro is 107.52

Don't get me wrong the 175's are trucking right along, but they got a long ways to go to hit triple digits

[1977 ASH]

pro350

Sorry for the typo and failing memories - but we did not miss the race - we were there along with many folks on this forum who watched. John Stevens broke my 1976 125 cch kilo record of just under 76 mph in 1982 just barely by the needed margin. But on my run, I was reading 81-82 mph as I passed the scanner - again with just 32 hp. Also, Gerry Walin set the 350cc Hydro record (we called it B Hydro in those days) at 97 mph clear back in in 1966 - and he finally averaged over 100 mph in 1971 - and in '72, his one way run of over 107 did not count as he stuck a piston on the return run - all done with a 2 cyl 350 cc Anzani putting out about 56-58 hp.

My point was simply that sometimes its hard to see where you are going unless you stop and take a look back at where you have been. Don't you think it makes sense that a 175 cc powerhead putting out 56 hp, bolted to the same tower, using the same prop, boat and set up that Gerry and Jimmy used over 38 years ago to make a one way run at 107 mph, should go just as fast ? Seems like it should to me. Also, Gerry and Ron Anderson both had the same basic set up with a 250 cc hydro that was going over 95 in the same late 60's, early 70's time era - and those 2 cyl 250 cc motors did not have much more than 48 hp as I recall.

I do see, as you point out, that the current records are not that high now - and I suppose that was my point - why not ? Those motors should be able to really get ripping along putting out that kind of hp.

I will stop with the old phart stories and go back to lurking now......

Mark

[bill van steenwyk]

possible reasons for kilo speeds at present

I have a couple of thoughts about this discussion regards Kilo speeds vs. HP.

The first one has little to do with HP, just the lack of dedicated Kilo runs sanctioned in the last 20-25 years. There used to be lots more of these than have been held recently in the mentioned time frame, in fact some of the more famous names such as Moorehaven, Fl, Kaukana(sp?) Wi., and several on the west coast used to have these events quite often. I am not sure about the west coast but it seems to have been quite some time since Kilo's were held at the other sites. Perhaps these sites (as was Moorehaven) were Kilo only and no other events were held there and the folks that contributed the time and energy to the running of them have other interests now. I also know since speeds have escalated, at least in the PRO category, and consequently there are fewer folks interested in strictly top speed MPH runs, and I have heard the comment numerous times that Kilo runs have little if anything to do with racing a boat on a competition course anymore with the use of special boats, lower units, etc. In other words, little commonality of equipment used in both.

The other comments about HP required or available at the time the quoted records were set raises some questions in my mind. This is a discussion that will probably never have a definitive answer because of the time frame involved and the equipment used in those different time frames to measure HP.

The records set by Walin in "B" Hydro are of particular interest to me personally because in 1986 I set the Kilo record for RB Hydro at almost 91 MPH two way average in a Kilo at Moorehaven, Fl. Because of the change in the course that year (limited run up to the measured Kilo) from both ends, I know that I was gaining speed all the way thru the Kilo, and consequently feel that the speed attained was considerably faster than the published two way average. I have no doubt I was close to 100MPH when I exited the traps at each end of the course, but nowhere near that when entering. That gave me an average and was the speed attained for the record, but in my opinion not the top speed for my rig at that time, AT THAT PLACE, for the reasons given.
The motor used for this record was a Yamato 80 of 327CC's, with ONE 25MM Bing carb initially used on a 4 carb Konig, and the setup used was a standard competition setup with a prop I ran in competition on longer courses. Nothing special in the way of boat, lower unit, prop, etc. We ran this engine on Jack Kugler's dyno in that same time frame, against the Quincy Z 350CC motor to try to achieve parity between the engines by manipulating the carb venturi sizes. Both engines were of loop charged design with one carb. They pulled in the mid 70's as far as HP was concerned.

This available HP of those engines and the speeds they were capable of leave some doubt (in my mind anyway) of the HP of Walins engine due to the speeds that were attained with both. I am not saying I was in Walin's league as far as set up, props, etc., merely that the HP figures given for that engine, compared to a similar engine of the same displacement and the speed it attained are so far apart, it seems improbable to me unless the measuring devices used to measure HP on the different engines were so far different or possibly wrong that I have a hard time resolving the difference.

I had a conversation with Fred Hauenstein in that time frame as he had just set the MOD 50 record at something over 100MPH, and asked him what kind of HP he thought was required to run in the 90 to 100 MPH range on a Hydro. His answer was at least 75HP to achieve low 90MPH speeds, and I had no reason to doubt him based on the dyno tests we ran on the Quincy Z and ZAK Yamato engines at that time.

These comments are in no way meant to lessen in any way Gerry Walin's accomplishments in the time frame he set the records. I thought they were amazing speeds at the time and still do, maybe more so based on how much engine design has improved since that time. I am sure that was the thrust of Mark's post also. All of us that were racing in that time frame, or around boat racing, really did see the rapid advancement of engine design and speed capability, and were very lucky to have been involved during that time.

[1977 ASH]

Bill

Good points all - most kilo sites indeed had limited areas to get up to speed for sure. It was indeed like running a whole different class with different propos and boats - it sure was a lot of fun though. Also, I looked at some old notes and heard from another forum member as well that the B Anznai actually had more like 64-65 hp based on Jimmy Hallum's calculations.

Mark

[flatsmoke]

Bill

Good points all - most kilo sites indeed had limited areas to get up to speed for sure. It was indeed like running a whole different class with different propos and boats - it sure was a lot of fun though. Also, I looked at some old notes and heard from another forum member as well that the B Anznai actually had more like 64-65 hp based on Jimmy Hallum's calculations.

Mark

Mark,

Jim Hallum told me that the 93 MPH single carb Anzani had about 48-50 HP. Ron Anderson worked on a 175cc VRP last summer and said it had more port area then any Alkie engine he's ever seen. He thought it would run over 100 MPH. Ron's 250cc Konig had a around 60+ HP and he was going close to 90 MPH at the 1973 Winona Nationals. He ran 12:15 gears and about 10% nitro. My non-nitro 250cc Konig engine had about 55 HP and ran 86 MPH on his A&H Hydro. Our 350cc 4 cylinder Konig had about 80+ HP.

In my opinion, Hallum and Walin's BRH was the most impressive kilo boat ever. And, I watched Hugh run....

82

[Smitty]

You didn't express an opinion pro or con, Bill, but it seems to me that whether kilo runs "relate" well to circle racing doesn't make it any less valid on its own terms or any less interesting. The small in-crowd of racers that love going to the Bonneville salt flats every year couldn't care less that their belly tank lakesters can't be raced on a track. To my elderly and provincial mind, beach starts, as done by the UIM, are a wierd affectation compared to "real" racing with a clock start, but I realize that is mere bigotry on my part.

The props Hallum and Walin were using were certainly not up to today's standards. Here's a prime bit of trivia (and I think I have it right): the prop used to go 100mph with that Anzani was the very same one Hu Entrop used to go 107mph (first outboard over 100)with his old F Hydro in '58.

[bill van steenwyk]

Opinions

Smitty:

The reason I didn't express an opinion about the "validity" or value of a Kilo run/record versus a competition or other type record is I really don't have an opinion regards the value of one versus the other. Both require a great amount of work, planning, proper setup, etc., to achieve. That being said, I seem to remember when adding the points up for the years I made the HOC, there were different values placed on different types of records and achievements. Kilo records got so many points, National Championship so many points, competition records so many and so on, with a National Championship required first to count any of the others towards the HOC. The skills and equipment required to set competition records vesus Kilo records are different enough, that in my opinion anyway, it is difficult to assign a value to either. Both put you in an elite category among your peers. The only judgement I would make is that except for guys like McKean and Wartinger, who are the only ones I am currently familiar with, Kilos are an altogether different game for the majority of drivers today. You can get in over your head very easily I think, unless you have a lot of experience in the boat you intend to try to set a Kilo record in, because the setups, and even boats and lower unit/prop combinations used for that type record are so different from the normal competition a driver enters in this day and time. It is not that one is better or more valued, they are just so different. It really doesn't even have to be a Kilo, just something different than a driver is normally used to. For an example just look at how many guys got badly hurt at Lakeland on the 1 2/3rd's mile course. There had to be some correlation between those accidents/injuries and only running it one time a year. I never went to Yelm, but I went to Lakeland from 73 to the early 2000th's and saw a lot of injuries.

The only comment I can make regards Kilo's that I am absolutely sure of, is I mentioned in my earlier post about my experience at Moorehaven and a very short run up area leading up to the traps. That did not allow absolute top end with my rig all the way thru the traps. I have looked at the picture Eileen took of me in the middle of the traps half way thru many times, and I am very glad I didn't have a longer run up to them. I have no doubt I would have been on my head if I had a longer run up, as the picture shows what I was feeling, nothing in the water except the prop, and air all the way under the boat with me trying to climb on the front deck, and the boat rocking side to side spilling air. Hind-sight being 20/20 I am really glad I started with a competition set up on my first run and broke the record by enough that a 2nd attempt was not necessary.

If I had to make a judgement about what accomplishment is worth the most in racing, at least in the PRO Category, I would say a National Championship. I worked harder and longer for that than any other win or record, and it helped get me in the Hall of Champions. so that is tops in my book.

[Rex Hall]

kilo records

The Anzani that set the "B" hydro record had to be over 56 HP because he was running a lot of NItro to go that fast, this in itself would up the horsepower considerably. I do not know if they ever did a dyno run with that much Nitro to find out how much power it actually made, but it certainly was more than what Anzani advertised for their "B" motor.

[flatsmoke]

The Hallum Anzani that went over 100 MPH ran 40% Nitro. It had 4 carbs with progressive linkage. I'm not sure of the prop, but I think it was something like an 8" diameter x 14" or 15" pitch 2 blade Cary Cleaver.

I don't know what this has to do with a current 175cc engine - except they might have the same power....