APBA Board of Directors

[ryan_4z]

Mr. Runne I guess if you own a business that makes anyone who does a great person to vote on the board well over the years I have had the opportunity to watch 1 of your great adventures (the Side Winder Engine Program) it has only lost over 1 million $ and the engines continue to have delivery issues and reliability issues. I also remember you supported the Crown Project---- Sorry don't wait for my vote !

First, John Runne is not a business owner. (Unless you count RunneCraft!) He is a working Joe like most of us are.

Second, where did the Sidewinder financial info come from? I was not aware that their books were public.

Third, I personally put almost 100 heats on my Sidewinder from last year to this year and never had one issue until we started running pump gas in our racing motor and broke some rings. User error doesn't qualify as a reliability issue so I would consider my Sidewinders to be very reliable. (And delivered.)

And as for the Crown Project, anyone who wants to criticize that situation should consider that this is the first and only effort made to modernize APBA. Maybe it was a failure, maybe not. Maybe just a first step in the right direction with some lessons learned. Whatever the case, complaining will get us nowhere.

To all, vote for John Runne because he is a man of action and a man of his word. You will not see him bashing others. He speaks of his stance. He is a man of integrity. A vote for Farmer John is a vote for Boat Racing.

[stockc]

Perhaps my question was barking up the wrong tree in assuming Bod members could have influence in this matter. But for clarity, my concern is not the woes of the 321 nor do feel it's issues should be placed in higher priority status than 102 or 302's. I do not support further tinkering with prop shaft height adjustment efforts to remedy Yamato overheating. I suspect we can agree that prop shaft height specs are providing a wide variance in cooling capabilities between hulls/set ups/props/transom angles, the list goes on, therefore they are not working. My bro runs OSY and 20ssh at 1/2" and never overheats, I run a minimum of 3/4" and barely make it three laps in 20ssh without sticking. My instinct tells me those who can run much higher that 3/4" are truly in the minority which places the rest at a likely performance disadvantage. I was looking for someone to vote for who would be an advocate of the vision to ensure ALL Yamatos ingest ample water via simple enhancement of water pick up. In turn delivering 100% equivalent cooling results across the board to all. This would render the playing field somewhat more level and minimize unnecessary repair costs on these bullet proof motors. The end.

[guedo499]

A rule that is already in the Stock Outboard books, which strikes a lot of similarity to me, is allowing the use of an exterior fuel pump. Most don't use a fuel pump, but it is an option. An external pick-up, I imagine many won't use it, but some will.

Really, what does it accomplish if external pick-up is used?

[Big Don]

Just as clarification on what I think is your question. The BOD does not get involved in that kind of decision. Your category commission do.

[stockc]

Don, yes and thx for the redirection. Ken

[Tim Weber]

I just received my ballot. It's already in the return envelope with stamp on it.

If you don't vote, don't complain about the results.

Tim

[csh-2z]

I would be all for an external pick-up. It has been discussed before in SORC meetings but I don't recall what the downside was. I had one on my Mod 12 years ago, of course in Mod there is no transom height regulations. I ran 1/2" above the bottom and picked up some significant speed, just needed a bigger skeg for control.

[GrandpaRacer]

The only down side is that the drag may slow you down. The extra cooling may speed you up. Who cares, all other engines cool just fine, lets allow the Yamato to as well. I think you agree John.

[dholt]

External pick up on 321?? Are we running Mod now?
It's bad enough that 321 parts are being mixed and matched on 302 engines...now we're talking about modifying the water/cooling system? This engine should have only been approved for 300ssH for a few years to work out the bugs. And it still could be designated for 300ssH only since it's essentially useless in classes where you can run above 1 3/8".
This just in...pumping water equates to height which equates to speed. What's good for the 321 better be made good for the 80, 302 and 102.

[guedo499]

. What's good for the 321 better be made good for the 80, 302 and 102.

100% agree. Who cares how the motor gets water; we are already limited by our rules at what height the motors can run. All the other stock classes have an impeller and run both above 1/2" & below 3/4", just depends on the class.

[csh-2z]

I wouldn't change any height rules, just because we allow an external water pick-up. And it should apply to all of the Yamato motors.

[Big Don]

If we didn't approve this engine for 20 & C we would have zero engine for anyone to run in the class for what 3 years? No one was able to get a 302 or whatever version we were on, or a 321 for 2 plus years? We really had no choice. Is it the best situation, NO. Now we have to figure out how to fix it.

We could have just said all 302 engines will be illegal in 3 years go buy a new 321. That's how this stuff is done in other racing venues. But that is not how we do it. That is why we have 40 year old 80 engines out there.

We looked at having the 321 as the engine for the 300 class but how do you pull that off. Who pays for what? Tell everyone they have to buy a 321 engine for a class they just started racing? Do an exchange program? Who pays for that? Just a tower exchange? How do you pull that off when you can only get 5 engines at a time? Maybe we can still figure out how to do that?

Like it's been said before, we talked about this engine at 2 national meetings and tried to come up with a better solution but based on the fact that we could only get this engine and not 302's, we made the decision we did. There were people waiting for Yamato engines so they could race, and we wanted them on the water.

Heck when I heard the 321's were faster I went into a panic. I had 2 - 302's sitting in our basement that we had, and I thought, darn (or some other word) we haven't even made the switch to the 302's yet and they are already obsolete.

I'm not sure I would be in favor of putting external water pick up's on. Just don't know enough about that to make a logical decision. I know how the MOD's do it but is that what we want? Heck let me put a external water pick up on my 80 engines, I know I have props that are faster then what we run that don't cool as well. Maybe I'll wait another year before going to a 302, or wait at least until I see what we decide...Hmmmmm

Several people need to do some testing and come back with what the recommendations are if we are going to lower all Yamatos. We do this crap all the time and make decision with out data. Heck we had data and we are seeing it may have been flawed because of the time of the year and the water temperature. Testing needs to be done now before the lakes all cool off. It needs to be done in all parts of the country. We need to know if we drop a 1/4 or a 1/2 of an inch does that fix it in all water conditions, needs to be tested at multiple heights and in all water conditions. ... If we do change it then what do we do with the Sidewinder? What do we do with the 80? What do we do with the 102? All these things needs to be considered.

[Matt Dagostino]

Big Don..........when you say 'we' need to do all this testing whom are you referring to? It has been months and months since this issue has been brought to light and all we have gotten is a memo from the SORC Chairman a few months back basically saying 'buyer beware'. Not sure this is a solution. The best solution is a simple water tube pickup like on the old Keller speedo's. Simple and effective. Other than that the 20ssh height should be dropped to 3/4inch to 'help' the water issue as was done in CSH years ago. Data gathering is a tuff deal in a hobby sport. Joe Parter did a great job taking his time and money to help the SORC sort out the performance issues with the new model 321, however he did not catch the water issue given his testing parameters which is not his fault. The SORC really needs to put it's heads together and coordinate with the Chairman to solve this one soon!! Yamato's are the lifeline of the Stock Outboard category and need to work for everybody equally.

[GrandpaRacer]

Don, you guys made the right decision on the 321. The problem with test data is that it usually is different than race data. We should n't look back and try to place blame we should just look forward and fix it. There have been several good ideas suggested: two holes, external pick up, cut the baffle out of the 321, and or cool anyway you want. Let's just allow cooling and go back to racing like ALL the other motors.

[Big Don]

When I say "we", I'm saying the category, every member. If a member wants something changed you need to bring data. Just changing to change or changing without data will lead us to making bad decisions.

BTW...There is not a water issue in 20 for the Sidewinder or the 80. Just sayin.

On the other hand. Just because there is a height rule does not mean you have to take it to the limit. There are water conditions where we drop our engines, it's a decision I have to make as a owner as to what I want to do or risk. Depending on the prop I run, I adjust the height.

I'm not saying we should not do something. There have been a ton of discussions going on to come up with solutions. You of all people know that is how it works. Just because Matt is not aware does not mean it's not happening. Several people have said we are working on solutions be patient. Jeff's letter was a warning so people didn't burn up engines.

I personally like Lee Tietze's idea of opening the hole. We know it works because guys have tried it and some have been caught. But, I would like to see data on the engines as to what that actually does on the 321. Matt or someone else go testing without it drilled, then drill yours out, put a temp gauge on and let us know how it goes and share the data. I would do it but we have raced every weekend except one since the middle of May. We won't have a weekend off until maybe late September or October. If you all can wait maybe then we could do some testing to come up with a solution with Pater since we don't own a 321.

If no one wants to drill their 321 tower then maybe the SORC will have to purchase one and have someone do the testing. Drill it out, if it is not approved or does not work have it welded back up and re-drilled. Not a big deal when you look at the cost of cooking an engine.

Here is my point. If I wanted something changed or done I would do everything in my power to support that position. I think I've done that in the past. I think Lee's Idea will work but what if it works for every engine but the 321? Then what we are back to the drawing board and without data it could be next racing year before we know.

[Matt Dagostino]

Our 321 for Val will be delivered next month and of course we will try to sort it out as best we can...........i still contend the 20ssh class height should be 3/4inch to match CSH to 'help' with the cooling issue for the 302 engine and now 321. And yes my Yamato 80 can run easily at 1/2inch because of the superior cooling inlet holes in the snout! However the model 302 and 321 are not set up like that. As you infer, perhaps we should 'open' up the water holes on both the 302 and 321?????? Sounds like a good idea. Now it's time to turn ideas into reality soon. I sent my ballot in this week!!! VOTE PEOPLE!!!

[14J]

The Model 302 has been referenced or at least grouped several times in the above "cooling" conversation. I will share my experience. Let me preface this by saying I am no master in the fine art of Hydroplane Performance and/or Racing. My current Reed Craft tested and raced several times this summer is packaged with a newly acquired and stock 302. I run a 20SSH set-up at 1/2" as well as an OSY set-up at 3/8" with no cooling issues. This includes any of my 6 propellers on the back of the boat. I've even run few OSY heats at 1/4". I will say that at a 1/4" I need to be aware of temp's. Anything deeper is not a thought.

With regards to John Runne he's a loyal Giants fan, so sure Vote John Runne.

[Howie Nichols]

I have a 321 tower without the clamp bracket assembly. If someone has a clamp bracket assembly lying around and wants to donate or sell it let me know. I will send my tower to Lee for the modification and then loan it to whoever can do the testing.

[Lee Sutter]

I'm interested! We could possibly compare Lee's idea with the tower we have modified. I would welcome help on conducting the tests.

[Howie Nichols]

Just let me know and I can ship the tower out. It is just the tower and pipe right now with no clamp assembly.

[Lee Sutter]

I have a 302 with modified water holes ready to test and race. If it works, we will modify my 321 and run the same tests. The initial criteria is as follows:
1) Cools Yamato 321 and 302 engines @ 1/4" below bottom at various tuck positions,
2) Simple,
3) No cost or minimum cost to racer,
4) All engines drilled with drilling fixture that can be used as an inspection tool, and
5) All engines are the same.
I plan on having the first series of test completed by September 15th.
I will have the test reports available for review.
Lee Sutter

[Matt Dagostino]

Please call Chairman Brewster as to enlighten him as to what your plan is................i like this Sutter guy!!

[GrandpaRacer]

A simple explanation of Lee's modification is to make two pick up holes just like the Y80 has.

[Lee Sutter]

We ran our Yamato 302/321 cooling tests last Friday at Lawrence Lake in Yelm, Washington with the following results. The engine cooled very well at 3/4" height. It normally runs at 380 degrees and ran 360 degrees with the 2 hole fix. But, at 1/2" it started to get hot and went over 400 degrees. Failed.
We will be trying another "non Destructive" test later this year. I will send a full report to Jeff Brewster after the next test. Respectfully, Lee Sutter 28-R

[csh-2z]

Time to get this thread back on the main subject. Voting deadline is coming up soon. It'll be here before you know it. So vote soon and vote often. Well once anyway. And don't throw your vote in the trash. Vote for John Runne, your anti-establishment candidate!
Thank you.

[Harold8]

Received , voted, returned!

[csh-2z]

It would be nice if everybody followed your example, thank you. Unless you voted for somebody else, then I take that back!

[Harold8]

:-) I think you would be happy, lol

[Ram4x4]

My vote(s) went into the mail yesterday.