Region 10 members only please, SORC stuff

[propnuts]

I would like feedback on what I believe will be one of the biggest issues at the winter meeting, the Merc 15 in A stock. I will give my opinion, but keep in mind I'm only one of the people I represent, and I'm willing to be swayed to change my opinion. I am against letting the engine back into A stock, reversing the vote the SORC took last year to remove the engine. My reasons are 1) I believe Racing Outboards deserve our full support, and putting the Merc in makes it harder for them. They are willing to target the Sidewinder A to around OMC A speeds, but the Merc adds a wildcard to the mix, plus gives racers less incentive to purchase their product. 2) The Merc A as raced in J and AXS is more mod motor than stock. Those that successfully race it are either machinists or pay plenty of money to machinists to make it competitive. With the Sidewinder we will have a chance to have a truly stock A motor in that class. 3) The Merc 15 already dominates 2 classes in APBA racing, and that seems like enough for any 1 motor. We don't need a 3rd set of heats where we watch the same Merc/Hemp combo go around the course, and I think the Merc owners that are pushing this agenda are frankly being a little greedy.

Let's hear what you guys think, like I said I am flexible and believe my job is to represent you guys as well as look out for the best interests of Stock Outboard racing. Tony

PS I know there are plenty of opinions out there, but I am only interested in those coming from R10 folks, thanks.

[Team 12R]

keep the merc out of A

well defended opinion tony. i agree totally and support your vote. i think we need the sidewinder to take hold and this helps the cause. the merc has it's place and as you have mentioned they have plenty of racing already with classes other than A.

bill dingman
222R

[ricochet112]

The Merc doesn't belong in A, and I'll go one step farther and say the Sidewinder needs to be a legal A motor for 2010. We run ASR and 2)ASH with OMC's...

Mike & Brian Bartlett 112R & 111R

[Cameraboy]

I don't have a dog in the fight for the Merc in A, but I agree with Tony's reasoning. I'd go further than Bartlett and say that all of the Sidewinders should be legal in 2010 - that issue is really the most important thing to be dealt with by the SORC in Seattle.

I also know that there are some strong feelings in this Region in the other camp. It showed at the ballot box.

But it does my heart good to see two dyed-in-the-wool Mercury people like Dingman and Bartlett willing to look beyond their own brand preference.

I also think a restricted Y-80 should be legal in A as well (they run a restricted Y-80 as a novice class in AOF - maybe the same size restrictor they use). This would allow new father-son (or daughter) teams to race with the same equipment - Dad in 20, the kid in A. Y-80s are reasonably priced, with lots of parts available, so I'm told. It's a way to keep that old equipment fully utilized and to get new people into the sport without them having to spend a lot of money. Can you propose that change at the SORC meeting for me Tony? Thanks.

[drbyrne55]

All the class names/renaming gets somewhat confusing at times.
If I remember classes are to be:

Junior Class:
J Stock
AX Stock

Stock:

A stock
15 stock
B Stock
C stock
D stock

A. Is the concept to support currently available engines and suppliers? The Merc15, Sidewinder A,15,B, Yamato 302, and Tohatsu.

1. I am unconvinced knowledgeable people won't find something to "legally" enhance on the Sidewinder. Has it ever happened in Stock or would this be a first?

2. If J Stock is the ENTRY point, make a J Sidewinder (restricted) available and be able to move up to A,15,and B.

3. Let the currently available Merc15 compete in 3 classes: J, AXS*, and A.

4. Let the Yamato 302 stay in 2 classes: B Stock (20/25) and C Stock.

5. Or maybe better yet remove AXS as Kyle has mentioned.


Bottom Line...
The above would support Sidewinder in several classes, Merc15 and 302 in multi classes. Definitely not 1 engine per class, but feel free to choose your engine. If there is a Merc15 mod loophole, close it at the meeting.

-*Axe ASX/ remove it.
-Add restricted Sidewinder to J class, make sure speed from J Class to A Stock is monitored and modified if need be.
-Leave restricted 302 in BSH with the 20 Sidewinder.

[Racerkyle20]

A Little Competition

American ideals of the modern democratic world consist of free trade right? A little competition between engine builders could only increase stock outboard. Nacsar races this way: Ford vs. Toyota vs. Chevy (people were not happy when toyota was brought on board either). A stock should be able to race all 3 available motors: sidewinders, OMC, and mercury. 2 of those motors are in production will only give the racer more options and give a little healthy competition between your local motor builders.

Personally i think in our region we have WAY too many kids racing AX, A, and J all in the same day. Then doing that twice with runabout! A stock in our region i would argue is our least driven in a whole compared to the other 2. AX was only added recently in the last 5 years to give a step between J and A classes (which makes no sense when 40 year olds can run this class). I would argue that AX should be eliminated all together to make one big A class. Some cases AX boats are going faster that A's! But this is a different arguement.

Back on topic, Why not allow mercury in? Ok, Sidewinder is being built specifically for stock outboard, Ed Runne is doing an amazing job with the motors and they are the future. But sidewinder is not only in the A business, also 15 ci and 20 ci motors are in production. They have plenty of motors to go around and plenty of buyers in other classes.

Mercury being allowed in the A class not only will give engine makers competition, but allow us as racers to CHOOSE which motor we want to race. Not having the SORC choose for us! Better racing, better competition between racers, and a better show for spectators/sponsors.

Aren't we all tired of racing 8 hours a DAY!? i know most regions don't do this becasuse they run only stock races or only pro races. In this region we race ALL 3 CATEGORIES! Stock outboard is taking up 80% of the day with people running 7 classes a day because they can. In recent years i think it's gotten out of hand when you have the Ruckers, Petersons, etc wanting to race everything and exhusting themselves every weekend. Nothing against them, I would too if i could and used to. But every weekend when we have to create a schedule around racing teams that are racing 7 classes with restictor changes, etc. It gets to be a long day and some racers get left in the cold, mostly pro racers. Condensing the classes creates an easier schedule to run in the day and creates better racing with 10-12 boats on the water. Not 4 running ASH and 7 running AXSH. Putting Merc in to A may help with this problem in our region.

So lets say this happens, OMC, MERC, SIDEWINDER in the same class. Sidewinders are already up with the OMC's in speed and competition(look at the results of Parker, AZ last weekend). My guess is the SORC wanting OMC to be weeded out (because the motor is obsolete) will happen. Production of the merc and sidewinders will only get faster and i would argue after 20+ years of the OMC in the A class they have 'topped' out in there performance. If newer motors are the future then why restrict where they can race?

Tony you represent us as a group, if i'm the minority then i guess you'll have to vote with the majority of our region. I ask you to consider this. This vote will not affect me personally but i think Stock outboard could only benifit from allowing free trade among engines builders. Of course there would have to be 'regulations' motor height, boat weight, etc to make the motors run on par. But this is just another opinion....aren't you glad you asked?

[Susan Rautenberg]

ditto to Kyle

being a supplier of putting entries on the water in all these classes-- I agree with Kyle all the way. We own two mercs, two omcs--who knows the future ahead for team ghetto and sidewinder-- anyhow-open it up--why not let all these motors be allowed. Helps make entries in other regions where boat count is low and the equipment is available to make a class. Not so much here in region 10 do we have that issue but this is a stock category issue as a whole.

[DeanFHobart]

Green Light To Sidewinder

First and foremost, Sidewinder needs to be given the full green light to allow all their motors full legal status in their appropriate classes.

And, it seems to me that all the motors should be able to run in all their appropriate classes. Meaning the Merc should be legal in A Stock also.

Wasn't it the original intent to also have a Sidewinder in the J and AXS classes, so all you would have to do down the line was to buy a different block and pistons or carburator or whatever, so you could go to the next class without too much expense ?

In the race at Havasu last weekend in ASH, 3 Sidewinder Hydros were running and there were some split heats with both an OMC or Sidewinder winning or placing. It looks like "Parity" has been achieved here.

Good Luck Too All and Best Regards,

[Team 12R]

A stock motor debate

i like where kyle is going with his opinion. i think however that the merc (hurts me to admit) is not the motor of choice in "A" class anyhow. keeping the merc out of A will also free up some bodies to help (turn or kicker boats) rather than run one more class just because they can. it's not fair to see a pro driver sit all day in a kicker boat and someone who is running 6 classes a day not able to help out because their merc can run that one extra class.

i'm really excited to see what will happen to the "A stock" with the sidewinder. if wyatt was old enough i would be the dad with a new sidewinder rig for him to race in 2010 for sure.

as long as the 44XS is a legal D stock motor i'll be a "merc guy" (funny huh) but the tohatsu was the best thing to happen to D stock. let's do the same with A stock. OMC and sidewinder only.

[HydroKyle93R]

I'll keep it short and simple. Sidewinder "A" "15" and "20" LEGAL 2010. Mercury in ASH LEGAL 2010.

Kyle, you explained it well enough.

Just another opinion.

[Susan Rautenberg]

dingman

bill--you are only looking at the merc in A in regard to region 10-- I am looking at it providing an entry in other parts to make a class where they fall short--- stock category as a whole-- i dont see the merc hurting--you are right it isnt the motor of choice so why not? it provides equipment to build up the class when/where needed. If ASR need a fourth boat I could send someone out in Colins boat--BUT it isnt easy to change motors to make the class--to switch a merc to an omc and i am not sure with a sidewinder-- its a transom bracket,kickout bracket, steering, fuel hookup--its a royal pain--i wouldnt do it. So let the merc run -- we dont really have the issue here in region 10--but there have been a few races where a-hydro and a-runabout didnt have alot of entries (rockaway) if needed we couldve sent someone out withe a merc. I believe it happened at moses lake last racing season in A runabout. let there be motor competition--the mercs are gaining speed who knows what will happen- eggs in one basket??? nah so get the kid a sidewinder when he hits the magic age!!!!!! I understand the no need to run the merc in more classes but it was legal to do so in the past and no one really did that UNLESS they were making a class--which is my point

[ricmontoya]

I may be mistaken, but I believe the AXS class was initiated because the Merc was not as fast as the OMC, If this is no longer the case then it seems practical to allow have the Merc OMC and Sindwinder all in the same class. Eliminate the AXS class and shorten our day ;-))))

I think Kyle has expressed the issue well.

Ric

[sponsonhead]

The 10,000 lb elephant in the living room

I don’t think anybody is patently against a specific motor, since after all, the idea is to grow the sport by making more equipment available. At this point, the Merc still seems to be a fairly large step off pace from the OMC in A, and therefore off the Sidewinder as well.

I think the real question here is the 10,000 lb elephant in the living room, which nobody wants to talk about. Which is the ‘Quid Pro Quo’, that may not have been officially stated by anyone, but everyone knows it’s there. That is the fact that Racing Outboards wants to have the A Stock Class as one of ‘their’ classes that they exclusively supply motors for. Yes, the OMC motor is still there, but Racing Outboards is smart enough to see that as parts diminish and OMC motors get harder to find, a market will develop for a viable, readily available replacement for the OMC A. As others have stated, Racing Outboards has made a significant investment in time, energy and money to get their products off the ground, and now that they are ready to go to market, they want to assure that they have buyers lined up, cash or credit card in hand.

I don’t fault them for wanting to be the new A Stock engine supplier. And before anybody protests that they are pressuring the SORC with strong arm tactics to get their motor approved by requesting that the Merc be disallowed in A Stock, I would submit that this pales in comparison to what other engine manufacturers have done in the past to get their way.

Anybody remember when Mercury strong-armed the SORC to disallow the use of the Merc Tower and Foot on the OMC 25SS? Faced with a threat that Mercury would crush all their racing part castings, the SORC outlawed the Merc Tower and Foot on the OMC, and in effect killed the OMC 25’s viability. When OMC developed the 15A, it was with the understanding that the SORC would also adopt their new 45SS engine as a new class as well. No 45, no A. And does anybody remember the “send-a-Yamato-to-Mercury-to-crush-and-we’ll-give-you-a-discount-on-a-new-25XS” program that Mercury offered?

My point here is that I don’t think Racing Outboards is asking for anything that is unreasonable or out-of-line based on concessions that Stock Outboard has made for other engine manufacturers. We should be glad that they aren’t preparing a restricted version of the A engine for AXS and demanding that we take it.

Still, we come back to the point that some have made already, which is that Merc A’s can help fill out the entries in places and at races where A Stocks are slim in numbers. More motors, more entries are good for the racers, good for the local clubs.

Approve the Sidewinder A now. Allow the Merc 15 in A Stock, and have a parity committee watch ALL the A motors like a hawk. If one of them clearly emerges with an upper hand, then step in and level the playing field again. Heck, make the Mercs carry 10 more pounds of lead if they are only intended to be used to help fill entries and give seat time.

Stock Outboard stands on the threshold of having something many of us have only dreamed of: An American made motor built by racers, for racers, built to run, easy to service and maintain, with a manufacturer that is concerned about parity, availability and bang for the buck. Let’s not step on our collective schlongs and blow this.

R-19

[Cameraboy]

-snip-
Approve the Sidewinder A now. Allow the Merc 15 in A Stock, and have a parity committee watch ALL the A motors like a hawk. If one of them clearly emerges with an upper hand, then step in and level the playing field again. Heck, make the Mercs carry 10 more pounds of lead if they are only intended to be used to help fill entries and give seat time.R-19 -snip-

Patrick, if I understand what you have written correctly (perhaps I didn't), then there would need to be a corresponding move to slow down both the OMC and the Sidewinder in order to create parity you are talking about among all A motors. Seems to be a lot of effort to fill entries and provide seat time. It opens the door to schlong-stepping by perpetuating a motor that is nearing 18 years out of production and another that is not in production for non-racing domestic use. People will favor the OMC at half the price, and the Merc because they can run it in 3 classes. Why would they buy a Sidewinder if it will never be faster than the other two?

The reason there is is an A and a 20 Sidewinder is because some rather experienced SO folks (yeah, they probably didn't ask anyone in this region for their opinion) felt that the out-of-production OMC and the even farther out-of-production Y-80 were prime for replacement. At the time, Permans weren't running 20, Jimi Oberto was still retired, and Dan Bryne was just pulling teeth - thus the restricted 302 wasn't viewed as a viable option outside of this region (and barely is now). And the Merc 15 wasn't considered an option in A anywhere.

Racing Outboards isn't a Montoya-type situation, where there are 77 fully assembled motors sitting in crates waiting for folks to tire of their 80s and 102s. Despite the success had with 302s in this region, folks elsewhere ain't tiring of those older Yamatos.

Do people really want to gamble that when they finally want a new motor, someone will be there with it?

[drbyrne55]

So far it is about 2:1 here on HR to keep as many motors in classes as possible. If this trend continues, maybe the easiest solution is to use the weight with intention. Make the Sidewinder/Merc15 430lbs and the OMC A 440lb? Reevaluate after one year. Do this with BSH too, make the weight 395lb for the Sidewinder BSH and the Yamatos at 400lb.

Use Byrne Brothers Racing for example, if you knock 5lbs off BSH/Sidewinder 20 there is a 60/40 chance we show up with a Sidewinder 20. If our Yamato 302R is thrown out of BSH .... well, not sure what we will do.