Tohatsu 50D2 / Merc 44XS Dyno Data

[jeff55v]

The introduction of a $5,200 (plus shipping,tax and options) engine that will 'blow the doors off the Merc' seems strange.

D Fan.

I highly doubt that will happen with that big lower unit buried.
RE: Tohatsu propshaft height restriction.

[Haüenstein]

I highly doubt that will happen with that big lower unit buried.
RE: Tohatsu propshaft height restriction.

Do the Tohatsus usually run even with the bottom of the boat? I don't know much about the setups, and what kind of effect the 1" will have. I guess that's why there's a parity committee.

mikeyh

[14-H]

One Engine/One Class

First, SO has long had multiple engines in one class: J Class: Merc 60 & 7.5 then OMC Restricted (.480") & the 7.5; 25 Class: OMC & Merc then Merc 22 & Merc 25; B Class: Merc& Hot Rod; C Class: Merc & 102 and now 102 & 302 (and they're not the same engines, the dyno testing would reveal different powerbands between the 102 & 302, I'd bet my best prop on it).

But the problem that is always created by one engine/one class is this: Whenever it's time to put a new engine in the class, that means all of the old equipment will be immediately obsoleted. I'm just not in favor of that, especially where we no longer have a manufacturer that can provide hundreds of engines in a short term (the OMC A in '86, was quite different).

For the D Class, that'd mean immediate elimination of the Merc in favor of the Tohatsu. But then, who would the Tohatsu guys race against? So we just let the class go and do nothing when there were no elims in DSH at the nationals this year and we only had 5 DSRs with the nationals in Region 6, the home of the DSR?

One engine/one class just has too many undesirable consequences. Phasing new motors in, makes for a much more smooth transition.

And engines with different powerbands can be made compatible in the same class. The J and AXS classes prove this point. Look at the cover of your Propeller Magazine.

[sponsonhead]

The Yamato 102 and 302 are merely different year models of the same engine. We have 2 complete CSH rigs right now. My 302 rig, and my dad's 102 rig. They are nearly interchangeable, within .5 mph anywhere on the race coarse.

Oh, that's right: I forgot all about all the 302s that have been winning the Nationals in CSH. My bad. Pater? Sutherland? Bowman? They're all 302 guys, right?

WRONG! Stock outboard has a very rich history of being able to thrive for years off of out of production motors.

Dying on the vine is a strange euphamism for 'a very rich history of being able to thrive'. I realize this is long before your time, but your dad and grandfather will tell you that SO was on life support until Yamato came in with the 80 in 1978. Go back and read old Propeller Magazines. There were participation numbers, but there was no future for SO until Yamato got on the scene, and it was Yamato's involvement that got Merc and OMC to sit up and take notice and produce the 25XS, 44XS, 15A and 45SS.

And I don't want to hear this sh*t about searching for a motor, this is no more difficut than having to call APBA and order you "new" motor, and conversion kit, and gearfoot, and find someone to assemble it all for you.

True, but if you are running A, you're getting a motor that is uncompetitive with the older, unavailable motor and requires considerable massaging to make it competitive. Is that a good way to attract new racers? Probably not.

With regards to the OMC engine availability, maybe that all depends upon which coast you are on. The Hydroplane and Raceboat Museum in Seattle is kicking off a new project tomorrow where they are build 4 or 5 Little Rascal Sorensen kit JH's and bring 4 or 5 new racers into outboard racing. These are NEW racers who are not second, third or fourth generation retreads, like the bulk of the people in our sport.

I'm sure they would love to buy 4 or 5 OMC engines ready to go, but they aren't able to find them on the West Coast. Maybe you could get in touch with the Museum Director, David Williams and provide him with availability and Cost of some OMC A's. His number is 206 764-9453. I will tell him to expect your call.

The Yamato does not belong in the class.

The Yamato SAVED the class. Whether you want to get into the endless loop debate about whether the class should have been saved or not is a topic for another thread.

The future of the class is as B stock, with the 20 cu. in. Hot Rod.

Perhaps, but the future ain't here just yet.

Yes, it is.

Then get off your A$$ and run for the SORC, run for Chair and beat Ed, and fix it all for us. I double-dog dare ya. After all, you seem to have all the answers.

R-19

[ryan_4z]

First, SO has long had multiple engines in one class: J Class: Merc 60 & 7.5 then OMC Restricted (.480") & the 7.5; 25 Class: OMC & Merc then Merc 22 & Merc 25; B Class: Merc& Hot Rod; C Class: Merc & 102 and now 102 & 302 (and they're not the same engines, the dyno testing would reveal different powerbands between the 102 & 302, I'd bet my best prop on it).

All of these examples are ones that existed for a very short amount of time(i.e. Merc and 102, or 25 OMC and Merc), or had one of the motors being run so proedominantly that the classes were basically single engine classes(i.e. 20H and Hot Rod). As far as different powerbands between the 102 and 302, you are absolutely right. But, look at the performance. I have a 302 rig that is almost interchangeable with my dad's 102 rig. Look at Billy Allen's success with the 302. The guys running the 102s had a 15 year jump on technology before anybody put a lot of time into the 302s(I am talking about CSH not CSR, but CSR only further proves my point). At Millville, in Sundays race, I ran fourth both heats, Billy ran second both heats(302s) and Dad and Scott Clark swapped first and third. The motors are highly compatible.

But the problem that is always created by one engine/one class is this: Whenever it's time to put a new engine in the class, that means all of the old equipment will be immediately obsoleted. I'm just not in favor of that, especially where we no longer have a manufacturer that can provide hundreds of engines in a short term (the OMC A in '86, was quite different).

This is not true. The Merc ran for 2-3 more years before it was obsolete. And lets face it, the motor changes of the mid-eighties are really the only time we have dealt with these kinds of changes before.

For the D Class, that'd mean immediate elimination of the Merc in favor of the Tohatsu. But then, who would the Tohatsu guys race against? So we just let the class go and do nothing when there were no elims in DSH at the nationals this year and we only had 5 DSRs with the nationals in Region 6, the home of the DSR?

No, not immediate elimination. That is the spin of this whole idea and you know it Ed. No one, for one second has suggested that we immediately eliminate anything. And to suggest that is flat out lieing. I have clearly outlined a 3 year transition period for phasing in new motors in my Plan for the Future.

One engine/one class just has too many undesirable consequences. Phasing new motors in, makes for a much more smooth transition. .

Refer to above post. That is what we have been talking about the whole time, "phasing in new motors for a smooth transition."

[ryan_4z]

Oh, that's right: I forgot all about all the 302s that have been winning the Nationals in CSH. My bad. Pater? Sutherland? Bowman? They're all 302 guys, right?

As has been said before, the 102 technology is about 15 years more advanced than 302 technology. Give it a couple more years. Oh by the way, 2000 Wakefield CSH 5th place John Runne, 2001 Whitney Point qualified for finals John Runne, 2002 Wakefield 3rd place John Runne, 2003 Copperopolis 2nd place Billy Allen, 2005 3rd place Billy Allen. All of these were 302 rigs. This motor is competitive, and compatible. And the SORC has had to do nothing for this parity to be achieved.

Dying on the vine is a strange euphamism for 'a very rich history of being able to thrive'. I realize this is long before your time, but your dad and grandfather will tell you that SO was on life support until Yamato came in with the 80 in 1978. Go back and read old Propeller Magazines. There were participation numbers, but there was no future for SO until Yamato got on the scene, and it was Yamato's involvement that got Merc and OMC to sit up and take notice and produce the 25XS, 44XS, 15A and 45SS.

Bullsh*t, unless of course 900+ boats at the Dayton Nats. 2 years in a row is "dying on the vine." I have talked extensively to my father and grandfather about racing in the '70's it was Stock Outboards heyday. I am not ignorant, and I am not making this sh*t up, so don't speak to me like I am. The 25 class was killed when Mercury "sat up and took notice," and forced an un-needed engine on us.

True, but if you are running A, you're getting a motor that is uncompetitive with the older, unavailable motor and requires considerable massaging to make it competitive. Is that a good way to attract new racers? Probably not.

The Merc should have never been in the A class, and I don't think anyone is telling new drivers to go get a Merc to run A with. I am not even sure if anyone is currently running a Merc in A.

With regards to the OMC engine availability, maybe that all depends upon which coast you are on. The Hydroplane and Raceboat Museum in Seattle is kicking off a new project tomorrow where they are build 4 or 5 Little Rascal Sorensen kit JH's and bring 4 or 5 new racers into outboard racing. These are NEW racers who are not second, third or fourth generation retreads, like the bulk of the people in our sport.

I'm sure they would love to buy 4 or 5 OMC engines ready to go, but they aren't able to find them on the West Coast. Maybe you could get in touch with the Museum Director, David Williams and provide him with availability and Cost of some OMC A's. His number is 206 764-9453. I will tell him to expect your call.

Look on Ebay.

The Yamato SAVED the class. Whether you want to get into the endless loop debate about whether the class should have been saved or not is a topic for another thread.

The class didn't need to be saved. The Yamato is simply a life support machine for a still dying class.

Perhaps, but the future ain't here just yet.

It's coming very quickly.

Then get off your A$$ and run for the SORC, run for Chair and beat Ed, and fix it all for us. I double-dog dare ya. After all, you seem to have all the answers.

R-19

I will not yet, and I have said why I will not. And yes, I do.

[sponsonhead]

Oh by the way, 2000 Wakefield CSH 5th place John Runne, 2001 Whitney Point qualified for finals John Runne, 2002 Wakefield 3rd place John Runne, 2003 Copperopolis 2nd place Billy Allen, 2005 3rd place Billy Allen. All of these were 302 rigs. This motor is competitive, and compatible. And the SORC has had to do nothing for this parity to be achieved.

It's times like this I remember the comment that Jeff Hutchins made to Steve Vincent at the 82 Nationals after Hutch beat him in the finals and Vincent was runner up:

"Kid---nobody remembers who finished 2nd".

Bullsh*t, unless of course 900+ boats at the Dayton Nats. 2 years in a row is "dying on the vine."

Either selective reading on your part or the point I was making went right over your head: Read again: "There were participation numbers, but there was no future for SO...."

Look on Ebay.

In your zealous attempt to offer the Snappy Retort, I think again you missed what they were specifically looking for: "4 or 5 OMC engines ready to go" I haven't seen those on Ebay.

I will not yet, and I have said why I will not. And yes, I do.

Cop out.

R-19

[bill boyes]

OK guys have the Popcorn ready.

[ryan_4z]

It's times like this I remember the comment that Jeff Hutchins made to Steve Vincent at the 82 Nationals after Hutch beat him in the finals and Vincent was runner up:

"Kid---nobody remembers who finished 2nd".

That is why I reminded you.

Either selective reading on your part or the point I was making went right over your head: Read again: "There were participation numbers, but there was no future for SO...."

I actually misread this line originally. The fact of the matter is, when it was time for new engines, we found them.

In your zealous attempt to offer the Snappy Retort, I think again you missed what they were specifically looking for: "4 or 5 OMC engines ready to go" I haven't seen those on Ebay.

You won't find a Merc "ready to go" either. Send the motor to Sled, and he will make it ready to race.

Cop out.

I have very good reasons, as were stated in a previous post. I do not have to explain myself in my reasoning, but have done so anyway. If you are saying that I must be on the SORC to have a right to voice my opinion then you totally misunderstand the positive outcome that can come from these public debates.

[sponsonhead]

You won't find a Merc "ready to go" either. Send the motor to Sled, and he will make it ready to race.

Again, missing the point: We are looking for 4-5 OMC Motors that are reasonably competitive for 4-5 new racers who are new to the sport. We can't find them, at least on the West Coast, and at a reasonable price. Furthermore, don't you think there's something inherently wrong with having to buy a motor, send it 3,000 miles away and spend a bunch more money on it to make it "ready to race" before the new kid even gets it in the water? This surely is NOT the way to attract new membership, touting Stock Outboard as affordable, attainable equipment on an equal playing field.

If you are saying that I must be on the SORC to have a right to voice my opinion then you totally misunderstand the positive outcome that can come from these public debates.

That's not what I am saying at all, and I think these debates are great and valuable. I just think that it's a lot easier for someone to sit on the sidelines and give everyone the finger rather than get in to the game, risk getting one's hands dirty and affecting a little change.

Eddie the Chairman will be the first person to tell you that he and I frequently see less than eye to eye on our sport's politics (to paraphrase David Spade, 'we get along like two cats in a duffle bag') but I respect him for his efforts to do SOMETHING, even if I don't always agree with it.

Myabe it's just a lot easier to have all the answers when you don't have to do anything with them and want to have everyone else do your bidding.

R-19

[14-H]

Now this is fun!

OK guys have the Popcorn ready.

Bill: Pass the butter.

[17W]

Hey...

Ryan & Sponsonhead,

You guys should exchange phone #s & call each other in the middle of the night & discuss this then (of course drinking for many hours before the call(s) are made). Feel free to continue w/the public debate....it too is good reading.

[ricochet112]

Put Another Log in the Fire

I haven't had anything to debate (argue ) for a while, so I'll stoke up the fire now.

Has anyone thought of installing a restrictor plate(s) in the Tohatsu? If you thought changing one restrictor plate was fun.....

Ryan- please attend a couple of National meetings, it just might lower your tone, attitude, opinions (or something). Seriously you need to speak up at the National meetings, (politically it don't mean squat posting here), except raising questions and blood pressure, it needs to be done where you can get results.

PS- if your seriously going to run some day, you may want to bring it down a notch or 2.

Mike

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

What he said

I think that we need to re-instate the D2 Class again.

Regards,

I think you guys went thru this in an earlier time, i think in this class it would be A lot more acceptable than a, af afx, a yada, yada.
I mean there has to be at least 1k 44 mercs out there, maybe more than that 500 or so!!!
What head are you guys using?
RichardKCMo

[Cameraboy]

Again, missing the point: We are looking for 4-5 OMC Motors that are reasonably competitive for 4-5 new racers who are new to the sport. We can't find them, at least on the West Coast, and at a reasonable price.

So what the hell IS a reasonable price for an OMC A? The last price I heard for a DiFebo (the fastest s*** available in some opinions) this summer was $2,600 sans gearfoot - add $950 for the gearfoot and it's a $3,500+ motor.

So you'd think someone could sell one that's a little more than half as fast for $2,000? Hell no! Can't even sell it for $1,800. And it's ready to run. I spent money on two "name" A motors, and it looks like I'll lose my ass selling both of them. Pricing on A s*** is all screwed up - that's why we run C now.

The status quo in stock is a mess for new people coming in. If I had more mechanical aptitude and a chance to do it over, we'd have gone PRO.