PRO 60% Sponson length rule questions

[drbyrne55]

[QUOTE=Al Peffley;118442]I have run OSY-400 in the past and CSH. I have never run the Antique classes, but believe they belong somewhere in APBA.
I personally don't see the OSY, K-Pro, or Antique classes having the opportunity for change that we need to promote more public interest and racer participation in the Modern Pro outboards. I will participate in clock or jetty start races at any race site of USTS or APBA sanctioned choice -- I just want to race next season in the Mostes, and have some fun doing it...



I'm not sure of numbers but it seems in region 10, OSY is generally a very full field; in fact I think an OSY set up pretty much won the "round up"open class at Everett last year Sometimes the general public is put off by pro class engine noise and we race on residential water often, noise is a public issue.

[Al Peffley]

Noise Issues

Dan - I have purchased a set of Rossi's latest silencer pipes for my new (used) 250ccH Rossi powerhead, with a VERY grateful "thank you" to Alex Cremona and Giuseppi at the Florida race site (Alex made sure I could purchase his new pipes before I left Lake Alfred with the Mostes). If you want to point fingers about un-muffled noise issues, look to the oldest Pro classes and large mod Mercs for excessive db noise output at Region 10 race sites. The UIM has a db noise limit rule (I believe it is 90 db) for many Pro O classes -- are you proposing we have one also? I am ready! Cross over to the "Dark Side" and spend some more money to go fast with us in 250ccH...

Al

BTW - I think Silver Lake in Everett is too small to safely run mixed "open class" Pro boats of any quantity because of the odd shoreline-induced (cross wake return) water turbulence problems in turn 2. I have witnessed several serious Pro accidents there in the past, including a few OSY mishaps due to the dangerous water conditions in the back stretch and turn 2.

[Kristi Ellison]

Al
In response to the KPH part of your post. KPH is a PRO Commission managed class so only the PRO Commission makes the decsions on that class. The kids don't vote on rule changes the Commission does. It is a gas and oil motor because there is not something more cost efficient to bring in the kids to the PRO catagory. We have had many a discussion on a different motor that was more in line with the big boys but nothing to date that was feasible for the short amount of time the kids are in this class. 125H when it was the "M" class was the intro class and went about the speed as a KPH does now but not any more so this is what we have.

[drbyrne55]

Dan - I have purchased a set of Rossi's latest silencer pipes for my new (used) 250ccH Rossi powerhead, with a VERY grateful "thank you" to Alex Cremona and Giuseppi at the Florida race site (Alex made sure I could purchase his new pipes before I left Lake Alfred with the Mostes). If you want to point fingers about un-muffled noise issues, look to the oldest Pro classes and large mod Mercs for excessive db noise output at Region 10 race sites. The UIM has a db noise limit rule (I believe it is 90 db) for many Pro O classes -- are you proposing we have one also? I am ready! Cross over to the "Dark Side" and spend some more money to go fast with us in 250ccH...

Al

BTW - I think Silver Lake in Everett is too small to safely run mixed "open class" Pro boats of any quantity because of the odd shoreline-induced (cross wake return) water turbulence problems in turn 2. I have witnessed several serious Pro accidents there in the past, including a few OSY mishaps due to the dangerous water conditions in the back stretch and turn 2.

I learn something new everyday I look forward to seeing your new fast and silenced 250 I hope racers follow your db lead with the silencers. Everett, I agree, I thought it was too dangerous.

[Al Peffley]

Thanks Kristi

Yes, I understand the K-ProH class' hull specs definition is managed at the Pro Commisssion level for standardizing the hull and motor specs and overseeing any safety concerns, as it should be. If it makes more sense to leave the 60% rule in for the lower speed Pro classes, then leave them the same as the Stock hydroplane class rules. Thanks for the reminder. Judging from variety of new hull designs and "senior pro level" presence of top-skilled drivers competing in O-125 races at Lake Alfred, it looks like the class has surely evolved beyond the original intent of an "entry level" class to a level of sophistication equal to the Pro Kart series. This is a good thing. Too bad APBA racers in the west do not recognize the eastern clubs' and Europeans' racing focus on 125ccH.

Al

[David Weaver]

It's Building

Too bad APBA racers in the west do not recognize the eastern clubs' and Europeans' racing focus on 125ccH.
Al

Al,

It's building in Region 11, as the 250 class is beginning to build again in Region10. It is interesting that growing-up in a "PRO family", I always remember the top 125's ("M's") being from California and Washington until about 1978 or so. The class was dominated by creative engine builders (as it always really has been until the GRM and VRP evolution began to build great factory engines).

I am excited to see more interest in 250 in Washington/Oregon. The available engines are really outstanding and the class consistently puts on good races. I am also pleased to a potential resurgence in 250 in the Southeast where it once was the largest PRO class.

Looking forward to 2009 (economy allowing!!!!).

DW

[Kay Harrison]

60% sponson rule

To update my previous post I have checked with other persons n cleared out the cobwebs. When I ordered the first pro capsule hydro from Gary Pugh in 1992 he wanted to build a tunnel rather than a hydro but the 60% rule was in place n commission did not want to change so Gary not that he wanted to built the first 500 pro capsule hydro.Having talked with Tim Chance we came up with approx. 1988 at the ST Louis APBA meeting when the rule was put in place n I believe because I was going to have a tunnel made for 500. Also think the west coast at this time had a problem with tunnels running with hydro's n Howard Anderson could answer this if interested also have talked with Gary about tunnels n capsules running together n he feels as I do that it would be a very bad idea its also a bad idea for capsule hydros n laydown hydros to run together as I tried this.Not sure about the remark at the 1993 UIM world championships as I didn`t see anything happen there that didn`t happen in 2008 n when I went over in 1993 it was a lane change before the commitment marker that caused it.I think now that UIM is using our 60% rule we are stuck with it but thats my opinion.

[Kay Harrison]

Capusle class future

Tim you know I agree with you that we need changes to interest more people in the capusle classes n I believe that having 0500 n 0700 would be best and allow step ups in the 0700 but I don`t like step ups.I also believe we need a more dependable engine maybe limiting to 2 cyl. is the answer who knows but some change needs to be made. Also jetty starts for capusle boats is a must to attract new drivers n for crowd appeal. Competition is what drives our sport not pure speed n four or five boats is seldom a interesting race n for sure not when only two or three finish.
Kay

[Joe J]

Nic:

If I did not know better, I would have thought Lauren wrote your post, as she has accussed me of being both things.

However, I think that the commission discussion on this subject will be very interesting.................

After watching the euro boats in Florida, I think the time for change has come.

Joe

125, 175, 250, 350, 500, and 700 hydro should all become "O" classes. No more APBA rules just UIM rules.
Chris,
Most of our representatives are to old and narrow mined to ever change!

[Joe J]

Al:

We have had 3 125's runnigng at most of our races in region 11 this year. While we had some difficulity getting them all to finish, at the last race of the year we finally FOUND the problem.

Next year should be fun.

Joe

Yes, I understand the K-ProH class' hull specs definition is managed at the Pro Commisssion level for standardizing the hull and motor specs and overseeing any safety concerns, as it should be. If it makes more sense to leave the 60% rule in for the lower speed Pro classes, then leave them the same as the Stock hydroplane class rules. Thanks for the reminder. Judging from variety of new hull designs and "senior pro level" presence of top-skilled drivers competing in O-125 races at Lake Alfred, it looks like the class has surely evolved beyond the original intent of an "entry level" class to a level of sophistication equal to the Pro Kart series. This is a good thing. Too bad APBA racers in the west do not recognize the eastern clubs' and Europeans' racing focus on 125ccH.

Al

[raceright]

Nic:

If I did not know better, I would have thought Lauren wrote your post, as she has accussed me of being both things.

However, I think that the commission discussion on this subject will be very interesting.................

After watching the euro boats in Florida, I think the time for change has come.

Joe

Hi Joe

This item will be interesting,Change is ok untill you have to pay for it. Some of us would be ok with this, many not. As far as racing for the fans when was the last time a Marketing Co. done research (good ones always do) as to what a racing crowd wants to see my guess is never. Even Nascar is having trouble with sponsor money next season the Great Petty Team might not have
enough sponsorship to get through the season. So as we have been doing and will continue to do is have bias drivers decide what the so called crowd wants to see. I do not mean this in a negative way but as they say there is only two ways to tell the truth posthumisuly and anomusly. (help me out Kristi
roofers can't spell worth a )

Pat

[David Weaver]

Touching on Good Points

Hi Joe

This item will be interesting,Change is ok untill you have to pay for it. Some of us would be ok with this, many not. As far as racing for the fans when was the last time a Marketing Co. done research (good ones always do) as to what a racing crowd wants to see my guess is never. Even Nascar is having trouble with sponsor money next season the Great Petty Team might not have
enough sponsorship to get through the season. So as we have been doing and will continue to do is have bias drivers decide what the so called crowd wants to see. I do not mean this in a negative way but as they say there is only two ways to tell the truth posthumisuly and anomusly. (help me out Kristi roofers can't spell worth a )

Pat

Pat touches on a number of salient points in his "unspelled" check discussion above. 2009 will be a brutal year for discretionary spending and I believe that powerboat racing quailifies as discretionary spending for most of us. 2009 is not the year to implement drastic changes. However, the future extends well beyond 2009. Now is an appropriate time to access the direction or directions that we need to head, in order to have competitive classes with an abundnace of participation.

Were I a PRO Commissioner, I would peform a comprehensive survey of drivers, racing clubs, sponsors, boat builders and engine builders. This survey would look to the future in terms of competition, expenditures for equipment, travel, etc.

Were it not for the overall crappy economy, I like where a number of PRO classes are positioned today in terms of growth potential. These classes have good engines "off-the-shelf", good boats and allow new competitors to come-up to speed quickly. We see drivers returning to PRO in the classes, drivers coming over from other categories and drivers racing for the first time. In my mind, the stigma of finicky engines has been lifted. People that were previously intimidated are now willing to give it a try. Also, speeds are now available in comfortable ranges and increments. 125cc has become the growth driver in bore-and-stroke racing. OSY 400 remains dominant in terms of particpation, but the cross-over effect is not sufficent to fuel growth.

Regardless of the economy's condition, I would have a concern about the capsule classes. In 2008, the largest particpation in a bore-and-stroke runabout class took place in 500cc runabout, a large displacement class. This suggest that plenty of engines and boats are available and drivers are as willing to race 500cc runabout, as any other runabout class.

Now, capsule class participation was meaningfully off in 2008 despite some significant financial sponsorship. The engines are available, but expensive. New boats are limited on the race course, but they can be secured from several builders. So what is it going to take to get the numbers up? In Europe, O-500 class particpation suffered for several years, but is now growing again with 15+ boats at many events. The Euorpeans expect many 2009 events to have 20-25 boats in O-500 (economy allowing). Has anyone asked how they garnered this growth?

Adding capsule boats to a schedule also adds cost for the sponsoring club. If the return is only a 6 boat field with 2-3 finishers then the value of the return is questionable. I have heard many good reasons why not to make change. I believe that the greater risk to these classes is cost of maintaining the status quo. I agree that abrupt change in a weak economy is not the way to go. But people are fooling themselves if they believe that no change is the way to go.

"Change is ok untill you have to pay for it." - Oh Yeah, ask GM, Chrysler and Ford about not paying for change. You eventually have to pay one way or another.......

[raceright]

I agree that abrupt change is a weak economy is not the way to go

David my spelling is off for sure but check your grammar lolololo

Any way all that is said about classes and numbers always has a rebuttal..
Case in point I think a full field of 400 osy although can be interesting to watch is boring compared to watching Unlimiteds test.. But thats me good racing is in the mind of the Driver..

Pat

[Kristi Ellison]

Spelling 101

Pat

I do not mean this in a negative way but as they say there is only two ways to tell the truth posthumisuly and anomusly. (help me out Kristi
roofers can't spell worth a )

Posthumously and anonimously....for the rest of you how many bundles in a square?

[GarE-12]

Spelling 102 and roofing 101

anonymously

and 3


Posthumorously!