PRO 60% Sponson length rule questions

[sam]

Not meaning to ruffle feathers ... but as an outsider to the 60% rule and the "reasoning" for its implementation ... what is the difference between a 60% rule and enforcement of the overlap/lane use rule(s)?

Am I wrong in assuming that tunnels could hold any actual non progressive arc thru a turn and hydros required an increasingly opening arc? ... thus the traditional understanding of a hydro's legitimate lane thru a turn was violated by the tunnel's "new math"?

If that's not the case, and the tunnel drivers were changing lanes willy-nilly, why were the tunnel drivers not just DQ'ed for illegal lane changes?

If a tunnel and hydro enter a turn side by side with the tunnel on the inside everything is OK, right? Reverse it with the hydro inside and there was a problem, correct? If I drive a hydro in the inside lane with no turn fin and the same thing happens ... I am clearly at fault. That I know of, racing has no rule favoring the less maneuverable vessel like commerce does.

As far as courses favoring tunnels ... I think that is actually inverse, that a one pin turn puts a hydro at a disadvantage; problem being that there is no course that puts the tunnel at disadvantage ... it can take any line and hold it if the driver choses.

If I am wrong in any of these guesses please feel free to correct me as I never witnessed the racing between both types of boats.

Does anyone recall who drove the tunnels that brought about the 60% rule? Can we have their comments?

[David Weaver]

Back in 1993

In 1993, the O-500 WC was held at Lakeland. There was an interesting mix of boats being used. There were several catamarans from Europe, which basically run much like a tunnel boat or are really tunnel boats (I do not recall if there was some suttle difference). The race course had big turns. The cats would steel the starts, but were passed by front running hydro's very quickly. Although they the cats could run against the bouys, they seemed to struggle going fast in a long arc, prefering to cut the bouy and run short straight lines to the next bouy.

I seem to recall some concerns lining-up the boats for the start (20 or 24 boats running at once). There were several accidents between the beach and the commitment pin, but I do not remember if these were attributed to different types of boats being raced.

With reagrds to the inception of the rule, I believe that came about when a 45ss boat won either or both of the nationals and high points in 1100cc hydro, despite being 15-20 mph slower than the front runners. My memory is that this did not sit well with some and the 60% rule was introduced. Also, catamarans were gaining popularity in Europe and perhaps concerns/problems there influenced the US thinking.

Hopefully, some with a better memory than me can answer.

[Tim Small]

60% Rule

Very easy to fix 60% rule. Drop the training wheels and get a real race boat. REAL MEN DRIVE RUNABOUTS.

[Doug Hall]

Hey Tim, I will let you take out my capsule boat anytime.

[ChrisH]

Tim & Doug ?

Very easy to fix 60% rule. Drop the training wheels and get a real race boat. REAL MEN DRIVE RUNABOUTS.

What were you two doing up so late on your computers?

[Composite Specialties]

60%, Get rid of it

I would like this put on the national meeting to have the Pro 60% rule removed all together, like the UIM rule, and require anything of 500cc and over, in a hydroplane or tunnel boat be capsulated and require all other hydroplanes be either kneeldown or laydown.

Would anyone be against this idea or atleast presenting this to the comission at the national meeting this year?

Why? I beleive that we can open this up to safer boats, better racing and more advanced ideas in boat design.

[David Weaver]

PRO Commission Meeting

I would like this put on the national meeting to have the Pro 60% rule removed all together, like the UIM rule, and require anything of 500cc and over, in a hydroplane or tunnel boat be capsulated and require all other hydroplanes be either kneeldown or laydown.

Would anyone be against this idea or atleast presenting this to the comission at the national meeting this year?

Why? I beleive that we can open this up to safer boats, better racing and more advanced ideas in boat design.

Contact the PRO VP or a commissioner. I suggest that you provide a succint proposal with specific changes. Try to include discussion points as to the PRO's and Con's.

I have asked for a proposal on another topic to be included in the commission meeting and will prepare a supporting write-up for the commissions consideration. The PRO VP was supportive of the adding the proposal to the agenda which is all that I ask.

[T Chance]

Very easy to fix 60% rule. Drop the training wheels and get a real race boat. REAL MEN DRIVE RUNABOUTS.

Well said , Tim. And on the subject I'm thinking about making some T-Shirts that say"

Real Race Cars don't have tailgates and real race boats don't have sponsons!

But back to the subject of this thread, the 60% rule. David mentions the '93 O-500 race with a mix of hydroplanes and tunnels. That was a UIM race and I have no knowledge of it as I was out of racing at that time. I'll have to look up an old APBA rule book as I recall that the APBA 60% rule was written sometime in the 70's. I think at that time Chicken Little grew tired of crying "The Sky is Falling, The Sky is Falling!" And switched to "The Tunnels are Coming, The Tunnels are Coming!". And the Pro Commission wrote the 60% rule to keep the tunnels out.

I agree with Marc, David and others with their thoughts on eliminating the 60% rule. And, I've said it before I personally have no desire to drive a capsule hydro, but a capsule tunnel does interest me.

[Doug Hall]

Mark, how would this make for safer boats and better racing. Tim, please expalin why you would drive a capsule tunnel but not a hydro. I dont understand what the difference would be. I am also not in favor of running hydros with tunnels. I believe this would be unsafe. I think you would increase accidents in the turns because of the drastic differences on how they turn. And if people are thinking about jetty starts just think back to Cypress Gardens. All the tunnels got to start on the inside lanes and all the hydros had to start on the outside. They did it for a safety reason but it did not help out the faster boats that had to start on the outside.

[T Chance]

[QUOTE=Doug Hall;118133 Tim, please expalin why you would drive a capsule tunnel but not a hydro. I dont understand what the difference would be. [/QUOTE]

Doug, considering that I've know you since before you were born, you know that I have driven hydros in the past. For examples, a lay-down Pugh with a 350cc Konig and a kneeler of my own design with Bogosian's D Konig on the transom. Bost were fast, not as fast as you, but fast nevertheless.

I also raced a 17' Seebold Tunnel with a 2.4L Mercury for a couple of years. It was all set up by the Seebold's and it was very fast. But I felt that because of power trim and the turning characteristics of boat that I was always in control, and I felt safe.

I have no personal experience in driving a capsule hydro, but in my mind I just don't feel like I would want to turn a hydro at high speed while strapped in a capsule. I'm probably wrong but I'm an old dog and I can't learn any new tricks.

That said, I would consider a 500cc Tunnel, otherwise I'll stick to runabouts.

[Doug Hall]

Tim, I think it is just like anything else. When I first went from a laydown to being strapped in I did not like it. But after a few races I felt very comfortable. Same thing with a runabout. If I were to race one I am sure I would not be comfortable at first. I really dont think that the capsule hydro turns much different than what my laydown did. I can drive just as hard into a turn as I did before.

[Composite Specialties]

Open Design

This is not just for tunnels, it is to open the design up for anything with a capsule. It could be a hydro with a new design bottom, who knows but it would be open for the boat designer to pursue. Just because the ruling may pass, does not mean that anyone would change anything. How many capsule boats were sold in the last five year? Of those sold, how many will still be around for the next 10 years, probably all of them. A tunnel boat can race on our courses by turning pin to pin, I did this in a 45sst and it is easy. You are speaking from your hydro experience but you are not speaking for tunnel boat experience.

With a tunnel or a special bottom hydro, there is the ability to pack more air with deeper sponsons. Thus, allowing the capsules to use a bottom pan allowing for the drivers to have more head clearance, 2" or more, which is very, very questionable right now with the capsule drivers. You would be able to race in rougher water, which would be safer than what you have right now. A jetty start would even the starting field, as I recall, you did pretty well in Florida on the jetty.

I could go on and on with inovations that this rule modification could bring to the capsule class as well as the open cockpit class.

Mark, how would this make for safer boats and better racing. Tim, please expalin why you would drive a capsule tunnel but not a hydro. I dont understand what the difference would be. I am also not in favor of running hydros with tunnels. I believe this would be unsafe. I think you would increase accidents in the turns because of the drastic differences on how they turn. And if people are thinking about jetty starts just think back to Cypress Gardens. All the tunnels got to start on the inside lanes and all the hydros had to start on the outside. They did it for a safety reason but it did not help out the faster boats that had to start on the outside.

[deanwilson]

a little backround

Although I don't remember the specific year, I was on the commission around the time the rule was implemented. It was in the early 90's and at that time we were all running laydowns. At the 1989 0-700 WC in CA the cats and laydowns ran together and I can tell you from personal experience it was dangerous and the wrecks were ugly, started 28 last heat only 8.

Some of those safety issues are lessened by the advent of the capsule hydros but make no mistake, the performance characteristics of tunnels are totally different than hydros.

Yes tunnels can use pretty much use any lane, but they go fast in straight lines and making hard sharp turns. You put me in a big arc or circle and I've got too much outside sponson wet and too much inside sponson catchin like a huge turn fin. I can compensate somewhat with trim but at some point I need to straighten out and get air under the boat.

Beyond the safety issues, there were some who were just opposed to tunnels period. I think I advocated creating a 3rd PRO hull classification for tunnels, but you can imagine how long that was considered.

To be honest, I haven't seen the 1100 capsules race so I can't really compare but I'll bet there's a reason that the euro prop riders and cats don't run together.

[sam]

I still have not been convinced that the "safety" issue can not be resolved thru proper enforcement of existing overlap rules.

"Unsafe" does not explain the problem

[David Weaver]

Safety Issues - Back In the Day

I still have not been convinced that the "safety" issue can not be resolved thru proper enforcement of existing overlap rules.

"Unsafe" does not explain the problem

Sam,

I believe a real problem existed when the cats and early tunnels ran with laydown and kneeldown hydroplanes. The former drivers simply sat higher and could not see the hydroplanes. A number of hydro's were simply sawed-off by the cats and tunnels. I doubt this was done intentionally, as all boat invlolved tended to be damaged, but the hydroplanes got the worst of it. Even if you DQ'd the offending driver, the damage was done.

But, if all the boats are using capsules, it would seem that this low "blind spot" would not be an issue. A tunnel driver would have to look left before making the classic tunnel boat turn.

DW