Old School vs New School

[DeanFHobart]

More Apel Info

In 1902 Adolph E. Apel first established his company in Ventnor, New Jersey. His vision was to build boats that would successfully adapt the gasoline engine as the predominant source of lightweight, efficient, and fast power.

Adolph Apel invented the five-point suspension hull in 1935, and refined it to the three-point style. He patented the three-point suspension hull in 1936 in the US and UK, and it is still used today. This design was a major development in both water resistance and stability. During this time, Adolph’s son, Arno, became president of the company and continued with the same visions.

More cool stuff.

[Tomtall]

Are you shure?

I was under the impression this man invented the hydroplane design.

Gustove M. Sachs

[mdaspit]

Looks like Gustav has been driving his Hydro without putting his visor down.

[B Walker]

back on track

OK, but were talkin picklefork design here....

The first picklefork I ever saw was a Yale Eagle. But I heard the DeSilva Bros made one pre WW2. Other people have told me Joe Swift invented the picklefork hydroplane.

Discuss....

BW

[sam]

I have never heard of pre-WWII pickleforks, but DeSilva, Swift and Thornton(sp?) all made them independently in the 1950's as experimental. Prior to 1950 practically all outboard "hydros" were single step bottoms ... basically a 2 point front-back step design.

There were a number of square fronted 3 pointers in the early 1960's, but pickleforks really took off when Tim Butts came out with his Aerowing. Tim may not have invented the picklefork, but he made it work.

[mdaspit]

What's the difference?

Right, acually what I'm wondering about are the performance differences
between the two.

Here's a "What if?"...

What if a guy built say a... Hal Kelly Jupiter, and ran it with a 302?
Given that all things were fairly equall, do you think that boat, or a boat like that could be competitive today?

[sam]

The Jupiter is a pretty small boat built for lower speeds. A good 302 not set up for actual circle racing is capable of about 70 mph ... way above the speeds run with B motors in the 1950's when the Jupiter was competitive.

A better size boat for a 302 would be a Ben Hur, but in competition today it will be heavy and bulky ... probably excellent in water just rough enough to keep racing, but on smooth water with a light ripple that gives the best speed with current designs, it will probably be sluggish off the turns and 5 to 7 mph slow on top end. Racing and boats used in racing have evolved to favor smoother water than when Mr. Kelly was racing.

[pops67g]

Don't get "Stuck in the 60's"

I raced in the 60's and I still race today. Let me say we had just as much fun back then, but the developments in equipment have made racing today more to appreciate. Lap times are much faster due to more advanced boat designs, 3 and 4 blade propellers, and better engine builders. If you just want a boat ride then nostalgia is fine, but if you really want to compete you need new stuff.

[mdaspit]

Yeah I understand what you're saying Pops, I'm just wondering how much of modern Hydro design is "form" and how much is "function"

How much does "Style" have to do with selling boats?

[jeff55v]

Good point

I raced in the 60's and I still race today. Let me say we had just as much fun back then, but the developments in equipment have made racing today more to appreciate. Lap times are much faster due to more advanced boat designs, 3 and 4 blade propellers, and better engine builders. If you just want a boat ride then nostalgia is fine, but if you really want to compete you need new stuff.

Well said Mike, I agree!
Also...
Hey... who invented the boat cart? What do ya say we all carry our boats in and out of the water? For old times sake. I had a lot of fun carrying my boat thru the Mississippi mud when I was a kid. (lost a few shoes doing that )

[B Walker]

Right, acually what I'm wondering about are the performance differences
between the two.

Here's a "What if?"...

What if a guy built say a... Hal Kelly Jupiter, and ran it with a 302?
Given that all things were fairly equall, do you think that boat, or a boat like that could be competitive today?

No boat designed 40+ years ago is capable of competing at todays level and its not a matter of conventional vs picklefork.

The older designs dont take into account the advantages of composite materials and other modern construction techniques. In addition, they were designed to handle much rougher water conditions than we race in today. There are also alot of other design differences besides the obvious picklefork vs conventional from the boats of 40+ years ago.

I think the chances of taking a design from the 50's/60's and modifying/updating it is an interesting challenge but costly, difficult, and ultimately futile. But plenty of racers are well known for taking on futile challenges

If your interested in competing there is tons of used boats out there. High quality competitive Hydroplanes designed and built specifically for the Yamato 302/102 Stock Outboard Motor can often be found for under 1000$ ready to race.

see ya out there,

BW

[B Walker]

Yeah I understand what you're saying Pops, I'm just wondering how much of modern Hydro design is "form" and how much is "function"

How much does "Style" have to do with selling boats?

Style does not sell boats. Its all about performance.

That said. I dont know a racing outboard boatbuilder in the country that makes a living off boatbuilding. Its a hobby.

BW

[mdaspit]

Im sure you're right. Just thought that sometimes things change for different reasons, and as years go by, maybe some decisions are made because of certain influences that may be outside the realm of pure performance, and they become accepted as the norm.
So, does something get missed along the way?

[sam]

So, does something get missed along the way?

Not sure what this question means

[mdaspit]

I just mean that being retired from the "Design" Industry it's interesting to see the effect
style has on what happens next. Take Architecture for example and the various styles that fall in and out of favor, and how that effects how things evolve. Cars, the same way. As people become more modern, they like to be surronded by more modern stuff.
and sometimes things can beome more modern just for the sake of being more modern.
So, just wondering if any of that crosses over into the boat business?