KONIGS ; pre: 70s, only

[bh/]

I am doing up some 'wall-hangers', aka 'Saw Horse Queens'
out of some parts I have.
Thought I had them all for this FA but missing one pipe
Dave Dalton says "you call them "Lawn Dart" or "Rocket" pipes ",
only seen on the very early flat top A's, actually a transition from megs to expansion chambers.
You can see by the pix I need one.
bhendrick@earthlink.net

[Smitty]

I have a set of the early-Sixties skinny pipes, but they aren't right for that engine. What I see in the pix is a fairly rare aluminum A block from about 1968. These weren't particularly successful, and were soon replaced by an Iron block version that was used to at least the late-Seventies. The aluminum block engine had about the first of Konig's modern-looking fat expansion chambers. It was way over-carbureted, but I guess a few guys got the engines to work; Armand Hebert won the '68 NOA Nationals with one, IIRC. You have the "wrong" flywheel as well. Yours is from an earlier FA with the Bosch magneto. I don't recognize the crankcase, with that big boss hanging out. The head looks like the correct one for the block. But then maybe you know all of this, Brian, and it doesn't matter.

Anyway, I think my skinny pipes ought to go on the appropriate engine. You can always have a pipe fabricated . . . .

[bh/]

Smitty; good comments, keeps me on my toes.
Yes, that block is FA69410 and would have come with battery /point ignition? and expansion chambers. I have a pair of those. A FA6345 here has a pair of slow taper megs, so that 'Lawn Dart' is probably off my FA6412?, a box of parts for now.
I had one of those later iron block FAs, 2 carb, 3rd port & reeds, at one time. It was a good runner.

[Lester Connor]

Whilst on the subject of old Konigs, I have a '68 VB with a gearbox which needs new seals & bearings; anyone got the patience to guide me thru the process from afar? Thanks.

[T Chance]

Brian, I thought maybe you might like to see those pipes in action. The photo is me in the 60's with the new conversion on my 1961 HRA Konig. New block, head, pistons and pipes with the then new 12:15 gears on a Sid Craft Hydro. The changes really lit that motor up.
Tim Chance, saint Louis, MO

[bh/]

Tim; -thanx for that. Q;?
-were your 12:15s gears in a 'LINKS' l/u,
or the 'split-case' that appeared later in the '60s.
I had a small-split-case 12:15 here , pretty little unit,
but now lives under a 125.
2)did your HRA have a Konig flywheel mag, or a Bosch gear drive ? or ..?
HRA 59247 is here with a OEM flywheel mag .

[T Chance]

Here is the story on the motor. I bought it new in 1961 for $464.00. It had a gear driven SEM magneto and 1:1 gears in the one piece unit with the "Links" left hand thread cone. The two megaphone pipes stuck out one at about 2:00 o'clock and the one on the other side at 4:00. When the conversion with the long pipes came out I had 12:15's put in that case. I ran another similar Konig during the same time frame. It had the new block but bent back megaphones, a gear driven Bosch mag and 1:1's. Ran a 6x8 on the 1:1's and a 6x10 on the 12:15's. Both got around the race course about the same lap times. Also had a 2-cyl deflector C Konig with a SEM mag. And I still have two FA Konigs, a Zak rotary valve converted 4-carb C. I also have along with some VRP and Rossi motors, an updated '83 500cc Konig that I still run on a 13' Krier runabout.

[rumleyfips]

A long time ago, probably 1965, I went to a Canadian ( TORC ) race and saw a set of these chambers with the Rocketman fins. Everybody was making a big fuss because they had never seen anything like them before.

The guy won A alky with no effort and B alky easily. At that time the class letter had to be stamped on the block. The driver registered in A with a 15 ci. Koenig and in B with a 15.1 ci Koenig. I guess stepups were frowned upon.

I don't remember the driver or what kind of hydro he ran , but I was impressed enough by the speed to remember those chambers.

John

[Harold8]

Not sure at all, but that very well could have been Ernie Wilson! He built his own hydro in his living room! He also dominated CSH with a stock C Koenig here in Canada!

[rumleyfips]

Ernie Wilson rings a faint bell. Not big, 5-8 maybe ,glasses,mid brown curly hair ???

[bh/]

Ernie Wilson rings a faint bell. ...

-yes Ernie, Harrys bros, of the Wilsons from Muskoka, who owned/ran unlimiteds;
Miss Canada IV & Supertest II & III. Display a Konig anywhere near Toronto and he
will show up within an hour.
These pix are a FCS, 2cyl 'big-jug' C as I knew them, 72mm bore,
Ray Ogier, boat designer, (Orsatti) ran one also.
Seen also as a alky FC with megs.

[1outboard]

I am looking for someone to rebuild my 350 konig 651 303 5599

I could rebuild your 350cc Konig, what is wrong with it? I been rebuilding Konigs since 1967.
Bill

[Smitty]

Brian, yes, I think the aluminum-block motors had battery-and-points ignition. And that was a little odd, because for the previous few years, Konig had sold the FA (and possibly the last of his other twins) with an ignition that was probably superior to anything else until electronic ignitions were adapted to racemotors. This was the "energy transfer" magneto. Big flywheel about the size and weight of a 20H flywheel, but with four coils under it. Very low current flow through the points, so you had to clean them frequently to make sure they had NO oil film on them, but otherwise surely the best of any of the mags. I think some guys disliked the mass of that flywheel, but whatever effect that had on engine acceleration was surely outweighed by the fact that this was a rather good ignition in an era of mediocre ignitions, IMHO.

I have a question. When did Konig stop selling the Stocker lower units, the ones with the built-in exhaust outlet, and go to the next-generation split-case units for alky motors? (For that matter, when did Konig stop building Stock motors?)

[Steve77t]

The one piece units were used until gone about 68/69. The first splits were for big motors and big case as well. The small motors used straight cut gears from the one piece units. The one piece unit came two ways, Early were Left hand thread tail cones and used on small motors. Another version was used on the C motors both stock and alky. Late style one piece units had a 8 mm bolt to hold the tail cone. Steve

[Lester Connor]

Hi Steve. Would I be correct to assume my 68 VB tail cone has a left hand thread ? Thanks, Lester.

[Smitty]

Lester, you might find "links" stamped into or next to the cone, means "left" (left-hand thread) in German.

[bh/]

....aluminum A block from about 1968. These weren't particularly successful, and were soon replaced by an Iron block version that was used to at least the late-Seventies....

I no longer have this FA7? ?? 2cyl reeds & 3rd port A, but it did run well.
Notice 2 carbs are on the same side opposite the 2 exhaust pipes,
permitting a 2:1 system .

[Smitty]

That's the iron-block engine that quickly replaced the aluminum-block motor, came out in '70 or '71 is my guess. Good engine, was built for years, later one came with two pipes. Ron Anderson built several for himself and Lee Sutter and others, including the one he ran through the kilo at 97-something.

[bh/]

Bob; maybe this one's yours ..???
No numbers on it, looks like an early crankcase, but late issue off set plug head,
and Merc CD belt drive ignition. The distributor uses just #1 and #3, wasting the other two sparks.
I guess if one drove it at 2:1, 1/2 speed, it would work also ?
I have found the utility 12v batterys at Walmart, ~$35 will not take
the pounding in a race boat, m/c ones, gel cells, ~$100 are better,
but lithium is best, $300.

[Smitty]

I think that's another early-'60s block (and head) on a late-'60s/early-'70s next-gen crankcase. Trying to remember if that would bolt right up. I put an aluminum block on an early 'case, and that required drilling the case to take thru-studs to pick up the two middle hold-down bolt holes in the aluminum block. I only did this because somebody sold me the aluminum block, off his one year old motor, cheap when he upgraded to the new-gen iron block. Personally, my belief was that the early-'60s block that you see in the photos, was better than any of the later ones. No, it didn't have the case-reeds, but I doubt they added much. The problem with the late block was that when Konig turned one cylinder around so that both cylinders exhausted out the same side, he had to squash one of the transfer ports way down. I looked at a Crescent once, and it had the same deal, one squashed port. The older A Konig had symmetrical ports, pretty big ones for that era, and my guess is that with the same port timing and carbs and pipes and ignition they'd have been as good or better than the late motors. Steve? Anybody?

The aluminum block I got was not too impressive. Very porous casting, very thin iron sleeves that had chronically leaked water for the original owner, and likely didn't stay very round or straight when hot. I pressed out the sleeves, cleaned up as best I could, then pressed them back in, bedding the flange in silicone sealant. But then it sat in a box. I called a few guys, but nobody had any of the 34mm Konig carbs that were supposed to go with this and the later motor. If I'd had more brains in those days, I'd have tried it with the 25mm Bings from my old motor. They actually might have worked about as well as anything on this one. For anybody following this thread who has never seen the inside of the aluminum block A Konig, it is as weird a piece as you'll ever find! Each of the cylinders not only has the usual piston-ported intake tract direct from the carburetor, but has a big passage to a case reed below its carb, and ALSO draws from the OTHER carb. In other words, one (either) cylinder is drawing from BOTH of the big 34mm carbs! The intake tract volume was massive, and the intake velocity must have been a slow walk, with a weak vacuum signal at the carburetor. Ron Anderson once rebuilt an aluminum block A motor for Dave Mayer, the first he had seen, and I asked if he didn't think the motor was massively over-carbureted. "Well, it did seem to make nearly as much power on one carb as it did with both," was Ron's comment. But that block sure is a great show-'n-tell now, something any 2-stroke guy marvels over!

(EDIT) Hey Brian, I hope you don't mind all of my blather here!

[Steve77t]

I have one of these motors in my collection, I also have a new set of the cylinders that you speak of. The iron cylinders were faster gthan modified aluminum types for many reasons, Steve

[Smitty]

Whilst on the subject of old Konigs, I have a '68 VB with a gearbox which needs new seals & bearings; anyone got the patience to guide me thru the process from afar? Thanks.

Setting up a gearcase is something most people need to be shown, as you are trying to interpret contact patterns on a gearset you've lightly coated with Prussian blueing. Also, you need someone good to show you how to "feel it up;" it's easy to get the lash a little too tight. Maybe talk to Steve77t about doing the job.

[glenntren]

BH, If you don't find a pipe, I could copy the one you have to make a set , or single .
Not to hi-jack you're thread , but i am in need of a pair of FA carb bowls.
Thanks, Glenn

[ddalton]

Glenn, l have some bowls,But they come with a motor.will sell powerhead only to you.good crank,pistons, head, crankcase twin pipe setup.