Reinforced Cockpits - response

[Brian10s]

This was taken from the DSH thread - I did not want to hijack their fun with my rant/ response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by don11w
Reinforced cockpits? Explain what that would have done in this accident. If I wanted to race in reinforced cockpits I would buy a tunnel boat. I think that rule is ridiculous. We are going to price ourselves right out of a hobby. We can't have a rule to cover every accident. I cut my leg on a fin in the inspection area, should we ban fins? Maybe require cut resistant pants for everyone helping? No shorts allowed? Rubber fins? Require they take fins off in the water before putting them on the scale? Put something over all props and fins or get DQ'ed?......................................

Good thoughts Don - while we are at it lets get rid of kevlar because those are too pricey as well. Because it is the same arguement that you are using for reinforced cockpits that was used back in the 80's with kelvar clothes.

You made only one good point in this entire rant, we can't have a rule to cover every accident. Your right, we can't. But if we can make one rule that saves just one driver from being injured and leaving the sport, then it is more than worth it. Reinforced cockpits and rounded pickles will increase safety for everyone on the course. That is a fact. Your correct, this is a hobby and everyone has to go to work on Monday morning. Which means if you can't buy 1 new prop this year in order to walk away from a wreck, is it worth it? How much is the safety of your friends worth to you? I guarantee the price tag is more than a couple props to me.

I guess boat racing is finally like NASCAR in one respect. Kenny Irwin & Adam Petty died in crashes and not much happened. Dale Earnhardt is killed and now they have the COT & Safer walls. So, which one of us has to be the Earnhardt before we start thinking about our friends first and our wallets 2nd.

If anyone wants to see what a boat with reinforced cockpits & rounded pickles looks like, see the 10-S & 36-S in CSH. We will be at Alexandria, KY this weekend and Lockhaven in 2 weeks.

[bh/]

Osy ?

I am no expert on this matter, but some builders we have spoken to, ones familiar with the OSY spec and composite construction, have said that the increased cost of building to the OSY spec will be minimal.
A re-fit of an existing boat could be costly. Like anything alse there can be expensive and cheap ways to get it done.
Here is a pic of a new OSY400 Giles running in this years WORLDS. The boat was built in the UK by King[RexCraft]. Coamings look a little higher than normal. Must ask what they thought the extra cost was.
[192 is Giles, 52 is the winner Barnard (UK), and only other kneeler]

[bill boyes]

Think about this. Just how strong do you want the cockpit sides? So strong that when a driver gets tossed out of the boat and hits his/her hip on the cockpit side that the driver suffers a broken hip. I would rather have a broken cockpit side than a broken hip. Granted a 6mm cockpit side is not good so we need a cockpit side that can break put still have some impact resistance. Just how much is the question.

[modhydro]

Cockpit side thoughts

I've responded to these threads before. I can't believe that people make the side issue seem so black and white in order to make their point. There is an awful lot of gray in this area and that seems to always be overlooked.

Remember that any engergy absorbed by a hull in impact is not available to impact you. It is possible to make one so rigid that it doesn't give at all and the impact would all be transferred to your body (once you hit the other side) and you could also have one that gives so much that not enough gets absorbed and the driver gets more of it.

Any competent builder with a little common sense and forward thinking during the build process can give you a stronger side at very little additional expense or weight. When you look at adding a couple hundred dollars to the overall price of the boat, is that going to change your mind? I would sure hope not.

The whole point of this recommendation is to offer us extra protection in the event of a crash. While I agree that you can't make a rule for everything (unlike the current trend of our government!) it would be plain stupid to ignore simple physics and do nothing to improve our safety.

As in the previous responses, I'll add the disclaimer that my statements of energy absorbsion are not exactly 100% true as I haven't taken into account both bodies inertia and heat generated by the contact. I'm sure that some physics major will point out the mistakes rather than focus on the main point which is doing what we can to keep our buddies safer on the course.

Steve Roskowski

[reed28n]

From DSH Thread

Side impact did not seem to be the cause of injury as much as the driver of the on coming craft this year. T Boned boats- the driver was OK. The reinforced cock pit idea didn't come into play. Everyone wants to be safe but there is no safety device that will prevent every incident. Cock pit safety should be considered but the materials should not be made mandatory yet.... and existing boats need to be grandfathered.

Everyone racing is aware of the risks involved in our sport. It is a known and accept risk we enter into when we register.....picking, policing and supporting good race sites is of more benefit.

They still have yet to come up with something prevents injury when walking in front of a bus but we still cross the street.....I suspect we will all continue to race with all of its known and implied risks.


Added.......
And no the increased cost is not significant in terms of materials. If you do not know what you are doing it can be a bit of a pain, but if you are going to tackle building a boat in the first place, laying kevlar on the cockpit side is not your biggest hurdle....

[Big Don]

Brain I can see by the above paragraph that you’re pretty emotional about this and by implying that there might be people that don’t care if our friend are hurt is BS…

I agree that we should try and protect ourselves the best we can. I was a supporter of Kevlar sleeves and pants; I stood up at a Region 6 meeting many years ago and voiced my opinion pretty loudly. I also supported transom heights back in the day. I’m all for safety so it’s not as if I don’t care. As you have for three years now and will continue to do so.

I would vote for mandating Kevlar sock, gloves… and to buy enough for all my drivers would cost more than putting reinforced cockpits in one boat so it’s not just the money. Make me put them in all 12 of our boats and it might be.

Most injuries are because drivers are thrown clear from their boat and the guy behind them does not have time to react or didn’t see them because of the spray. Or you are injured by your own boat coming back over you. My point was I watched Kyle’s crash in Washington he was thrown so far from his boat that I was worried that he would land in front of another boat 50 feet away 5 seconds behind him and they would have no clue he was out there. Reinforced cockpits would have done nothing in this case other than maybe the boat would not have been as bad. But then the other boat would have probably been worse. I applaud anyone that wants to have reinforced cockpits in their boat. I just have a problem mandating them at this time.

I think we should crack down on stupid driving and that might prevent even more accidents. I have seen more stuff that makes me wonder what we are doing wrong to promote unsafe driving before, during and after the race. Guys making hard left hand turns in the straight-a-ways to prevent you from passing them, or guys looking right at you and chopping you. Make the penalty for dirty driving more severe and see what it cleans up. If I know that I might be done for the weekend maybe I leave an extra foot or two before moving over?

[14-H]

Side impact

If you are in the boat when it is ramped from the side, you are in deep do-do. I don't care how strong the side is. It ain't gonna be pretty.

[Kristi Ellison]

I am not trying to intrude on your thread but.....I have seen too many times how reinforced cockpits have protected drivers and it is very impressive at best. My brother was in wreck in 250R at the Pro Nationals last year in the first turn and after seeing how the impact damaged the boat but the cockpit side held due to reinforcement, I made **** sure to order my new boat with a reinforced cockpit. In fact Mike Krier made it clear he would never build one again that was not reinforced. I agree they should be granfathered in so we don't drive everyone out like what happened with the capsules but if we have a better way to protect ourselves then we should do it. Like you said we have to go to work on Monday and that is difficult if you are in the hospital hurt from a wreck when maybe you could have gone home if you had had better protection.

My 2 cents

Kristi

[G Stillwill]

I build all the boats now with Kevlar on the right side no sense in doing a kneel down with no left side to start with a lay down is different. It cost about 80.00 more to use so no big deal. Thickness depends on the class that Im building for the inner panel and is cut out when I cut out the coming. The Kevlar is bonded to the panel then that is bonded to the coming. I also make all the dash boards so they break away and will break out if you go out the front of the boat if stuffed, better then getting knee caped.I make the pickels more blunt now to. But bottom line is what we do is dangerious and you can only make a boat so safe. I saw the pictures and if you get t boned nothing is going to stop a boat from coming through the side as it will just go over it bringing just more of the side with it.

[DougMc]

Before any ruling is made materials should be tested as well as construction methods. What type of kevlar? Yes there are different tyes. What type of carbon? Yes there are different types. How should it be applied/constructed? Just making a rule without facts may just give a false sense of security. Both my CSH/OSY are reinforce with kevlar or carbon. Both are brand new boats. One material and construction method held up to water pressure after flipping one did not and broke/came apart. It is my hope all three organizations will get together and test materials before mandating anything. Let's find the answers to safety we all seek through well grounded testing and research.

[Kristi Ellison]

I like Robby Galleta's test.....he shoots it......he fiqures if it is bullet proof then it is good to go.....I am serious ask MJR!

Kristi

[Brian10s]

Don,
You are right - I believe very strongly in improved safety and in these 2 issues. After being T-boned in the cockpit side while running down the straight when a boat broached in front of me, this tends to change your outlook on things. And if I misinterputed your post, then I appoligize to you. Because you have always been an advicate towards improvement in the sport and the safety of the sport, I was very suprised in the way I read your post.

However, there are some that would and do disagree with increasing the protection our boats can provide us. That is a fact. Example - pickle points. Sharp pickles do nothing in regards to speed or handling and everything in looks. And all they are is projectiles chasing either boats or bodies. Yet, we would rather have sexy than safe and many people have told me to man up or get out when I mention this. As for reinforced sides, will it solve all our problems, no but it is a great first step. The next step is pickle points. After that, increase protection of the bodies (as you said once the driver is thrown clear of the boat, he is on his own). So, we have started with flak in the lifejackets and that is a good start. Next would be to look at other sports and see how they protect legs and arm from impact - example could we some sort of padding or protection around the arms and legs. Don't know but it would be the next step in the process. Several drivers have experimented with head and neck restraints - this first hand experience should be published for everyone to read and discuss.

And lastly, you are 100% correct in that the drivers are responsible for most issues becoming much more important. At even small races, drivers are driving as if a trip to the Nats is on the line. The intensity is high no matter where the race is or how many are in the heat. And because we are all driving harder, calls are not being made because no turn judge wants somebody barking at them when they hit the beach. For this reason, the yellow and red card system must include off water issues so that there is protection of turn judges. Also, I still think a driver test for each driver on what the exact rules are in the rulebook (similiar to the J test) so that each turn judge knows the rules and what to look for. We all think we know but unless you read the rule book every year, things change. The biggest issue with a driver test is not in creating it but correcting it. Even if every official correct test in his area, it would still take forever to process the test. One possible solution is to have the test online and let the system auto correct it (could also be used for the Ref, Inspector & J tests). I have used several of these in different things for work but would have no idea how to create it. We would need a computer guy to even explain how it works.

So, yes our sport has a level of risk that everybody accepts. But to wait for the magic solution to fix everything is head in the sand thinking. Reinforced cockpit sides and rounded pickle points would only be the beginning not the end. We take the first steps and then keep going. No one wants to price guys out of the sport but it is not like kevlar has brand new. It has been around for awhile but very few boats utilize it. Unless you make some kind of rule nothing will ever get accomplished. Look at Flack jackets - pros have had them for years but most Stock, Mod & J drivers did not. It took a rule to get guys to protect themselves. If you don't like reinforced cockpitsides, fine, that is only protection of you (kind of like a $10 helmet for a $10 head). However, rounded pickle points protect your fellow racers because they are the ones you are going to spear. So how many drivers have taken the hacksaw to their pickles? Less than 5%, even though it is one of the easiest things to do and the cost is 2 pumps of west. It is so easy, I did it to one of my boats (without help for my Chief Mechanic and Boat Fixer - well he advised but did not touch).

[wagner-racing16-s]

No matter how safe you make the boats it's the mind behind the wheel that determines the safety of racing.

[reed28n]

Sexy?

I think we are on the same side of the safety issue. No one wants anyone hurt.
I think Don especially understands. He sends all his kids out there.

We are not all going to agree on what is the best for the sport and the bang for your buck. The Driving suit has had the most impact....speaking as some one who has been run over by my own boat.

If we are going to get anywhere on this subject you have to remove all of your emotional and plot a sensible logical path.... no one will agrue the intended result...Safer!.... let's debate the plan to get there.....

[Brian10s]

I think we are on the same side of the safety issue. No one wants anyone hurt.
I think Don especially understands. He sends all his kids out there.

We are not all going to agree on what is the best for the sport and the bang for your buck. The Driving suit has had the most impact....speaking as some one who has been run over by my own boat.

If we are going to get anywhere on this subject you have to remove all of your emotional and plot a sensible logical path.... no one will agrue the intended result...Safer!.... let's debate the plan to get there.....

Pickle points are nothing more than a sexy issue (kinda like you in a teddy but I degress ) and should have been a slam dunk in '07 but were not. And now it is still stuck in committies among the various Categories for one reason or another. The sensible plan has hit the political mudbog and gotten stuck to the door handles. Same with reinforced cockpit sides.

Yes, no one wants to hurt anyone else or see anyone hurt. However, sometimes if takes raw emotion to get the wheels turning and someone to stand up and push. I am all for a sensible logical plan as long as there is the signs of progress. We have to keep moving forward. But until there is signs of the end in sight, I will remain vocal and emotional and continue to push this issue back to the top of the heap. It is too important not to commit 100% to.