APBA D-stock Rule Change

[Racerkyle20]

Let them run!

You can't expect people to just drop what they've been doing in a class mid-season and call this illigal now! Finish the season and then make the 15:16 ratio illigal. Seems fair to me, but what is not fair is to make them illigal 1 MONTH before the stock nationals on a technical error! So now you're expecting people that planned on running a tahatsu at nationals with the 15:16 gear ratio to just go out and buy a 1:1 gear case! Not enough time Ed! Let them finish the season out then change it! or provide some sort of exchange program of the different gear cases. Also coming from a Merc D stock racer.

Kyle Bahl

[seanp3]

You can't expect people to just drop what they've been doing in a class mid-season and call this illigal now! Finish the season and then make the 15:16 ratio illigal. Seems fair to me, but what is not fair is to make them illigal 1 MONTH before the stock nationals on a technical error! So now you're expecting people that planned on running a tahatsu at nationals with the 15:16 gear ratio to just go out and buy a 1:1 gear case! Not enough time Ed! Let them finish the season out then change it! or provide some sort of exchange program of the different gear cases. Also coming from a Merc D stock racer.

Kyle Bahl

This has no effect on me since I don't run this class. However, this seems fair to me. Especially since the Tohatsu hasn't shown to be dominant with these gears. Finish the year and fix the error after the season is over seems a fair resolution.

[csh2z]

Ed, I think we need an SORC meeting ASAP. Mr. Bass' attendance would be imperative. This must be resolved

[mike ross]

Its up to Ed to post what we approved in Atlanta. APBA has them on record. We also posted these minutes after each day when we were there for all to see. We made every effort to get this stuff out to everyone to see. There are e-mails posted in this thread that confirm others knew that 1 to 1 ratios where what was approved. Commisioners from the West coast agree that this was what was passed. I see the rule in the tech manuel to say 1 to 1 on everything. The lower unit and gear case picture of the products Bass Machines provided shows the 2 size gears but what an inspector would go by clearly states 17 17 for a Bass gear case. You know the old saying when you (ass-u-me) something. Mike

[race4kaos]

this is hilarious to me, as i am not at all involved. but ultimately sad at the same time...

if i were an APBA SO Tohatsu owner/driver with 16:17 gears that had no way of knowing my pricey investment was going to be suddenly declared illegal just weeks before the Nationals on my side of the country i would be absolutely livid. quitting the sport would be the least of the SORC's worries. 4am wake up calls should be expected. they might want to keep their kevlar and helmet on at all times in fact...

IF i were that unfortunate Tohatsu owner, i would certainly go after Ed's SO promotional fund for a set of 1:1 gears. i might even go after some of it for new props if i had invested as much time and money in testing my 16:17 rig as i normally would before a nationals. ed doesn't f-up on a written technical error this bad often. a representing attorney should expect to pay...

IF the bass bros sold 16:17 gears to drivers intending to run SO and knew the initention was only 1:1 engines to be legal, shame on them. maybe they should split the 1:1 replacement cost with ed's promotional fund.

IF the driver bought 16:17 gears knowing it was not the intent of the approved engine/rule, but wanted to push the issue and use the loophole of the printed rule, bravo. but now your bubble has burst and you better get some 1:1 gears (at your own cost) fast and get back to the lake and test.

so how many Tohatsu owners out there have 16:17 gears you planned to run at the nationals...? and what category does your situation fall in?
if it's a couple people, fix it. there's time to make it right.
if it's a dozen, hmm, good luck...

[DeanFHobart]

SO Technical Manual

Right out of the SO Technical Manual on page 32 for the Tohatsu D Stock, which I just got from the APBA web site:

Pinion Gear 16 or 17 tooth,

Propeller shaft Gear 17 tooth.

So, for Mr. Hearn to change this on his own is not legal. And, it is not the right thing to do. The new Tohatsu D Stock motor has put new life into D Stock. Mr. Hearn is not considering the Mission Statement of the Stock Outboard Steering Committee to encourage new motors.

Mr. Hearn, "What's up with that?"

Ten (10) new Bass/Tohatsu D motors sold, with six (6) active orders. That's
most likely more than the current active D Stock drivers with 44XS Mercurys.

[ryan_4z]

Right out of the SO Technical Manual on page 32 for the Tohatsu D Stock, which I just got from the APBA web site:

Pinion Gear 16 or 17 tooth,

Propeller shaft Gear 17 tooth.

So, for Mr. Hearn to change this on his own is not legal. And, it is not the right thing to do. The new Tohatsu D Stock motor has put new life into D Stock. Mr. Hearn is not considering the Mission Statement of the Stock Outboard Steering Committee to encourage new motors.

Mr. Hearn, "What's up with that?"

To All, Ed did not change any rules. There was a mistake in the rule book. This is not the fault of Ed or the SORC. There is not, nor ever was, any big conspiracy to see this motor fail. Everyone on the SORC, and most of the people on this website, want to do what is best for Stock Outboard racing. If you don't believe that then you need to lay off the reefer because you are getting way to paranoid. The right thing to do would be to allow this for the rest of the season, obviously. I think that would be a very nice gesture on the part of the SORC, and would probably go a long way in calming some tempers the next time an issue arises with this motor.

Ten (10) new Bass/Tohatsu D motors sold, with six (6) active orders. That's
most likely more than the current active D Stock drivers with 44XS Mercurys.

I seriously doubt that this is even close to true. How many of those 10 have 16:17 gears? And how many of those are owned by APBA Stock Outboard participants?

[Big Don]

Seriously, everyone needs to take a deep breath and remember this is a freaking sport.

I’m starting to think Ed is going to need some body guards. Ed pit near us we’ll have Thomas assigned to follow you with an air horn and if anyone comes within 20 yard he’ll blow the thing and we’ll all come running. Which is crazy because this is not Ed's fault.

I know, it’s easy for us to say because we don’t have ton’s of money invested in D equipment…we all have ton’s of money invested in this sport so we do know what your dealing with.

It still comes down to this… it’s a sport/hobby that we do for fun people. Remember the fun part.

Be glad it came out now and we are not addressing this on August 9th after the DSH race and guys were DQ’ed.

Let’s try and find a solution to this problem ahead of time. I strongly suggest a SORC phone conference and see it there is a solution to this issue. My opinion is that while it may have been a typo the inspection manual is what we go by and that is what we expect people to follow. I agree we did not legalize them but we can’t expect people to know what our intent was.

[mike ross]

Dean you are right that the info on page 32 shows a 16 and 17 gear for the pinion. That info was from the Bass Brothers product brocure which was copied and added to the tech manuel so we had some info on the motor due to it being such a new motor. But the page the inspectors would be using is page 28. And if you look under the gearcase section you will see the that both Merc and Bass are listed there with the correct ratio for both. The 1 to 1 ratio is also specified under the Superthunderbolt spec's. Look at page 33 under lower unit option #2. It states there that using a Bass lower unit and foot that a 17-17 gear ratio only. This is how it was communicated in Atlanta when both these motors were approved. We stated then that all ratios would be 1 to 1 for the D stock class. I know that mod,aof,nbra allow the use of any gear ratio. But to keep the playing field level in D stock the commision voted to have the ratio 1 to 1 for everyone. Page 34 it shows all the motor options and has them side by side for review. Please take a look because the ratio is 1 to 1 for D Stock. Mike

[kws]

Im with you on this one Ryan. SORC please let it ride untill next season as people can probably get gears before the nationals, but finding the right wheel for the new gears might be a differant story. and its not like anyone was trying to cheat by buying the sixteen tooth gear.
just my 2 cents

[csh2z]

Dean you are right that the info on page 32 shows a 16 and 17 gear for the pinion. That info was from the Bass Brothers product brocure which was copied and added to the tech manuel so we had some info on the motor due to it being such a new motor. But the page the inspectors would be using is page 28. And if you look under the gearcase section you will see the that both Merc and Bass are listed there with the correct ratio for both. The 1 to 1 ratio is also specified under the Superthunderbolt spec's. Look at page 33 under lower unit option #2. It states there that using a Bass lower unit and foot that a 17-17 gear ratio only. This is how it was communicated in Atlanta when both these motors were approved. We stated then that all ratios would be 1 to 1 for the D stock class. I know that mod,aof,nbra allow the use of any gear ratio. But to keep the playing field level in D stock the commision voted to have the ratio 1 to 1 for everyone. Page 34 it shows all the motor options and has them side by side for review. Please take a look because the ratio is 1 to 1 for D Stock. Mike

Mike, The information on page 28 refers to the use of the Bass foot on a Merc 44XS only. On page 34 it refers to the Bass unit on a 55H. On page 32 it clearly states that on the Tohatsu both the 16 or 17 tooth pinion gear are legal. We cannot take things out of context. There is no place in the tech. manual or rule book that states that all D class motors must run 1:1 gear ratios..Regardless of the original intent, we must honor what is in the tech. manual as that is all the owner can go by. In my opinion, considering all the cir***stances, these lower units are absolutely legal.

[Big Don]

Mike, agree that is what the inspection manual reads, but very misleading. We have to stop the “intent of the rule mentality”. People cannot be expected to know what the intent is. They have to be able to read the rule and understand. Very hard to do with many of our rules but that is what get’s us in trouble lots of times.

Unless someone can prove that by making them switch now won’t make them change their props and we have several loaner lower units to give them, we are putting these guys in a tuff position. I’m going to say let’s let them run them at this years nationals. If they win, so what. We all have to get up and go to work when we get home and a wise man told me several years ago….does the mail person really care if you won a S.O. Nationals or not when you get home?

[nbass]

Dean you are right that the info on page 32 shows a 16 and 17 gear for the pinion. That info was from the Bass Brothers product brocure which was copied and added to the tech manuel so we had some info on the motor due to it being such a new motor. But the page the inspectors would be using is page 28. And if you look under the gearcase section you will see the that both Merc and Bass are listed there with the correct ratio for both. The 1 to 1 ratio is also specified under the Superthunderbolt spec's. Look at page 33 under lower unit option #2. It states there that using a Bass lower unit and foot that a 17-17 gear ratio only. This is how it was communicated in Atlanta when both these motors were approved. We stated then that all ratios would be 1 to 1 for the D stock class. I know that mod,aof,nbra allow the use of any gear ratio. But to keep the playing field level in D stock the commision voted to have the ratio 1 to 1 for everyone. Page 34 it shows all the motor options and has them side by side for review. Please take a look because the ratio is 1 to 1 for D Stock. Mike

Hey Mike, if you remember I was receiving all kinds of direction from Mark Wheeler that was not consistent with our proposal nor with what our representative at the meeting told me. Like any reasonable businessman, I asked for some written do***entation of the decisions made at that national meeting. When I asked Ed for that written information he forwarded the question to you and you asked me to read the national meeting minutes posted on this site, hydroracer. And, as we have determined the minutes do not say anything about 1:1 for the Tohatsu. Sometime following that national meeting giving approval for the Tohatsu the rules were published. The published rules clearly stated two gear ratios. Without further reading between the lines we all thought the 16:17 gear ratio was approved. Think about it, should we all assume the Sidewinder will be required to have the same gear ratio as the engines it is replacing?

Let’s move on to a better process that will bring racers together. I plan to work with Mike, the new engines committee, and the other new engine providers to design a system that will bring racers together rather than divide. I have a number of ideas that need to be organized for presentation. Ed and I started on a very good foot and quickly divided over the parity committee issues. The parity committee did not work well and there are much better solutions for all.
Neil Bass

[propnuts]

Let em run

I have no dog in this fight except for what would is best for Stock outboard racing. Penalizing the Tohatsu owners for a clerical error, oversight by the SORC, or lack of clairvoyance seems like a bad idea. I don't know whether a Tohatsu will, or even stands a chance of winning Nats, but if one did it would help sell new motors into a formerly dying class, how bad would that really be?

[99R]

Were do I sent my BILL!!!! Ohh and by the way I run legal just look at how hacked up my transom is from keeping up with the rules. And if my mind doesn't fail me Russ I have won a heat or two with the Tohatsu not just you.