APBA D-stock Rule Change

[ryan_4z]

I think you guys need to cut Ed some slack here, he didn't type the Inspection Manual. I for one very clearly remember only 1:1 gears being approved. That being said, we need to find a reasonable way to resolve this so that it works out for all involved. Maybe Neil would be willing to do some sort of exchange program for the 15:16 gears(I assume that they both run in the same gear housing?). Maybe we could make 15:16 gears legal for the both the Tohatsu and the Merc. No matter what, everyone needs to realize that although the Inspection Manual may have listed both gear ratios, the 1:1 were the only legal gears the whole time, and it wasn't Ed's fault. Don't forget, Ed supported this motor long before a lot of us decided to jump on the bandwagon. Also, remember this, flying off the deep end every time some issue arises is not going to help gain support for this motor. Cool, calm, conversation will get this issue relsolved, not rants or tantrums.

[ricochet112]

An Inspectors Prospective

If you Mike Ross would post the minutes from the national meeting where the totatsu was proprosed and excepted that will put this to bed.

Russ Bircher 45R 151R

I don't think that statement is fair at all Russ.

First off, I don't run D, no one in our camp runs or plans to run D, and I only know the Bass' from casual encounters at the races.

From an inspectors view point: If it was printed in Propeller magazine, then printed in the inspection manual, that both gear sets were legal, how could anyone know that only 1:1 was legal????

I could see this being a "middle of the year issue" if it was caught in a couple of months, or before it was printed in the inspection manual. If it has been over 2 years with this "typo" in the inspection manual, then IMO, it should be changed AFTER the 2007 race season.

Add; Question for anyone. What month/year was this printed in Propeller magazine?

[ryan_4z]

If it has been over 2 years with this "typo" in the inspection manual, then IMO, it should be changed AFTER the 2007 race season.

That seems pretty reasonable to me. It certainly is not the fault of the racers who read their inspection manual. I would even go as far as to say that I don't think I would have a problem with legalizing these gears. There have been a lot of issues surrounding this motor(very few of which have been the fault of Ed, believe it or not), let's throw a bone to the Tohatsu guys with this one. It would be a nice showing of good will on the part of the SORC to Bass Machines and the current Tohatsu owners. Since the Tohatsu is certainly not dominant, even with the 15:16 gears, what does it really matter? If the Tohatsu should too quickly become dominant, then I am pretty sure that the Parity Committee won't waste any time stepping in. If this does happen though, I would expect the Tohatsu camp to "forgive and forget", and make every effort to work with the SORC as this process continues.

[pro350hydro]

All this complaining makes me want to run Stock..... NOT!!!!

It sounds like the SORC has their heads up their butts. I'll never own a piece of stock outboard equipment.

The Bass Brothers are busting their ass,and you just keep kicking them in the balls!!! Thats a great way to grow your class.

Either A: Show the minutes from the meeting saying 1:1 is the only legal gear with with Tohatsu or B: Let it run as written in the rule book

But quit changing the rules halfway through the game

[Big Don]

Hey Ed....run another term.

I remember the night about 2 years ago someone made the motion on a conference call to just get rid of the Tohatsu because they had not meet one of their deadlines. When it got a second I thought Ed was going to come unglued. I am willing to bet that if it had not been for Ed the engine would never had become a legal engine for the D class.

[sponsonhead]

Digging in the dirt

Ok...so Ed says that it was the intent to only allow 1:1 gears in the Tohatsu, and that an oversight in the Tech Manual contradicts that.

Neil Bass states that is was the intent of Bass Machines to allow multiple gear ratios to be run with the Tohatsus.

I did some digging in some emails I received dating back to February of 2005 which shed some light on the history of this issue. I presume that I was cc'd in the discussions because I am a West Coast D Driver and to this point have enjoyed cordial relationships with both Wheeler and Bass. Here's some correspondence I received:

-----Original Message-----
From: njbass [mailto:njbass@silverlink.net]
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:04 PM
To: mark.wheeler@wmich.edu
Cc: Tony Perman; HowardShaw@hmausa.com; Mike Wienandt; mark.wheeler@wmich.edu; Edward W. Hearn; BPquick1@aol.com; John Runne; Dave Anderson; Patrick Gleason; John Read; Jeff Yunger
Subject: Re: Tohatsu M50D2

The engine comes as stated by my message to the SORC for the January
meeting. (see attached as a reminder.) The engine will be provided with a
Bass Machines bolt-on clamp system or a sadle and clamp system provided by
the racer. No other mounting systems are provided. Cowlings are included.
It is up to the purchaser to define the desired gear ratio. Our proposals
all along have stated that there are choices in gear ratios. Lastly, the
introductory price notice is for Mod, NBRA, AOF as well as APBA D-stock.
Neil Bass

----- Original Message -----
From: <mark.wheeler@wmich.edu>
To: <mark.wheeler@wmich.edu>
Cc: "njbass" <njbass@silverlink.net>; "John Runne" <csh2z@hotmail.com>;
<BPquick1@aol.com>; "Edward W. Hearn" <hearne@jbltd.com>;
<mark.wheeler@wmich.edu>; "Mike Wienandt" <Apbaopc1@charter.net>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: Tohatsu M50D2


> Hi Neil,
>
> Thanks for keeping us updated on your pricing of the Bass-Tohatsu D-
> Stock engine.
>
> There are a few points that need to be noted:
>
> 1) The 16:17 gear ratio was not approved for used in D-Stock. An
> engine with this gear ratio would not be legal in D-Stock.
>
> 2) The specifications approved by the SORC included the use of the
> Tohatsu clamp bracket and swivel. Hence, and engine with a Mark 55H
> clamp bracket and swivel would not be legal in D-Stock.
>
> 3) I assume the engine comes with Tohatsu cowlings, but this is not
> stated. The specifications approved by the SORC included the use of
> Tohatsu cowlings.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark

From this, we see that Neil was notified initially thast only 1:1 gears were originally intended, and Neil states that all along, they (Bass Machines intended multiple Gear Ratios to be allowed.

The response to this thread from Neil, Mark Wheeler and Jeff Yungen states:

-----Original Message-----
From: njbass mailto:njbass@silverlink.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:19 PM
To: Edward Hearn; Edward W. Hearn; Jeff55V@aol.com; mark.wheeler@wmich.edu
Cc: readracing@sbcglobal.net; patrickgl@msn.com; Daveydaveblonde@aol.com; csh2z@hotmail.com; BPquick1@aol.com; hearne@jbltd.com; Apbaopc1@charter.net; HowardShaw@hmausa.com; propnuts@hotmail.com; mark.wheeler@wmich.edu
Subject: Re: Tohatsu M50D2

I am hearing a lot of what the SORC said, but have seen nothing official in
writing. Ed, can you or can someone please provide that written SORC
doc***ent?
Thanks,
Neil
----- Original Message -----
From: mark.wheeler@wmich.edu
To: Jeff55V@aol.com
Cc: mark.wheeler@wmich.edu; njbass@silverlink.net;
propnuts@hotmail.com; HowardShaw@hmausa.com; Apbaopc1@charter.net;
hearne@jbltd.com; BPquick1@aol.com; csh2z@hotmail.com;
Daveydaveblonde@aol.com; patrickgl@msn.com; readracing@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: Tohatsu M50D2


> Jeff,
>
> I agree completely that it is up to the customer to order a motor
> with a legal gear ratio. I just want everyone to understand that
> the SORC only accepted the 1 to 1 gear ratio. No one wants APBA
> members to purchase motors that won't pass inspection.
>
> Mark
>
> Quoting Jeff55V@aol.com:
>
> > I think Mr Wheeler may have misunderstood Mr Bass. Mr Bass offers
> > more than
> > one gear ratio for the Tohatsu motor. It is up to the customer to
> > specify the
> > gear ratio he or she would like to buy. Mr Bass did not mean to
> > imply that
> > ALL the gear ratios he offers are APBA legal for use in D stock
> > racing. It is
> > up to the customer to purchase an APBA legal motor.
> > I hope this helps clear things up.
> > Thanks, Jeff Yungen

So, we know that as early as February of 2005, there has been ambiguity about intent of the gear ratios. This should have been clear to Mark, Ed, Neil, Jeff, and everybody else on that email thread, and nobody did a thing about it. That it has taken over two years for this to make critical mass makes it pretty clear to me that The Parity Committee approach for D has been a disaster from the get-go, is ineffective, and should be at the very least restructured to include at least one Tohatsu owner as a representative, or better yet, abolished altogether.

As far as this particular issue, let 'em run gears for the remainder of the season, and address this in the offseason. What difference will it make changing it now, other than just pi$$ing off a lot of racers?

I agree with Mr, DeLong...it's time to stop the games and let the D racers race, and resolve the dominant motor on the race course, not in the Board Room.

A Merc D Owner who wants to see D Stock grow,

R-19

[m58rr50hydro]

Pro

hey Mike, all this really does is make the PRO class more attractive!!

DARIN
PUT A 250 MOTER ON YOUR NEW BOAT AND LET'S PLAY!
SORRY I WHORED THE THEAD FOR PRO

MR HERNS
JUMP ON A PLANE AND GET YOUR "CHATTY ASS" (Jimmy Spencer) TO THE LEFT COAST AND SEE WHAT IS WORKING

BEST REGARDS
MARC
R-58
M-58

quote "Jimmy Spencer"
"sit your chatty ass down here and we'll talk about your other duties."

[Team B&H]

Sometimes compromises must be made. We finally got to see an actual, running Tohatsu motor a couple of times here in the midwest. I missed the display motor and demonstration runs the manufacturer had at the Nationals last year so this event was closely watched. Here we had a guy who hardly ever raced or tested. He had a Tohatsu, one prop and a twenty-year-old boat and was downright competitive in DSH as well as DMH. I am familiar with his boat and it was great in its day but hardly state-of-the-art today. It was fast! But had difficulty starting. I'd bet that if someone took this engine and put it on a contemporary boat, had a handfull of good DSH props and a driver like JMK or BP, it would stand a great chance of winning the Nationals, especially on a smaller course. (A west coast conspiracy?)

Anyway, my feeling is that the parody guys have done a reasonable job getting the 1:1 Tohatsu competitive with the 1:1 Merc at 1/2 inch. Especially considering that the Tohatsu has been kept so secret in the past. So leave the 1:1 Tohatsu at 1/2 inch.

Since they had never evaluated the underdrive motor and it was originally run at 1 inch, simply continue to let it run at 1 inch until some meaningful data is provided or established.

And the 55-H clamp or tower guys? Well, let them run MOD until they can affort a whole motor.

See, compromise is easy, can't we all just get along?

[WILDONOUACHITA]

rule change

wow this is a bunch of bull**** new tohatsu racers are ready to race why has it took this long to find an error in the printing ,sounds like its because tohatsu won a race. Is that such a terrible thing ?

[daveracerdsh]

Not Stealing Thread

There is no "West Coast Conspiracy" to run a smaller course at nationals this year to favor the Tohatsu. The layout of the body of water is such that a 3/4 mile course works best as opposed to a larger course similar to what has been run at Wakefield and past nationals. We are running a 3/4 mile course, which may be surveyed, but not approved for records. We don't need to throw any more fuel on the fire on this issue. Dave Anderson, Nationals pre race director

[daveracerdsh]

Tohatsu

I was going to keep my big fat mouth shut on all of this, but I am the "spineless" person that Russ Bircher, who I have considered a close personel friend called me in several posts here. There was never, as Russ asserts, any finger pointing or whining about the Tohatsu winning a race. I have in fact, even though I own a Mercury 44XS, been the biggest supporter of the new D motor. Russ and the Bass brothers are well aware of this fact, and the comments that Russ has made about me have honestly made me re think whether I want to continue in the sport, or whether it is time to move on to something else. Who needs the hassle? This is supposed to be fun. All that was done was a simple phone call to some people as to whether the undedrive gears were legal in D Stock, whether it was in the Tohatsu or the 44XS. The answer was no. I was at the national meeting in Atlanta, where I, along with Howard Shaw and others, pushed approval of the new motor. I CLEARLY rememember discussion on the underdrive gears, and that it was decided that only the 1 -1 ratio would be legal. Why would the commision approve something other then 1-1? Common sense dictates that both motors should have the same gear ratio. I can understand why Russ and others would be upset, but come on. People do make mistakes, and hope all the people involved understand that we are human beings...and nothing is going to be perfect. Hope to see you all at the Stock Outboard Nationals. Dave Anderson

[jeff55v]

My disclaimer...

I have not been, nor have I ever been, elected, appointed, selected, etc. to represent:
1.) Bass Machines
2.) The Stock Outboard Racing Commision
3.) The Merc/Tohatsu parity committee
I have never been given information by anyone that, at the same time, was not readily available to anyone else. Any erranous statements I make or have made only reflect my own ignorance. I have never intentionally made any statements in an attept to mislead anyone.

O.K. with that said. Sometimes I think this wonderful tool called Hydroracer is also our own worst enemy. Where else other than here at HR, have you ever experienced such negativity? I've been to a couple races with my motor, and I've seen nothing but good sportsmanship, and decent gentlemanly behavior. I was so grateful for all the help that was given to me, sometimes by the very folks who stand against having a two engine D class. Yet, if you look here on HR, you'd think we must break out into fistfights or something whenever we get near one another. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[csh2z]

I'd like to know two things. 1. How many motors that have been sold, have 1:1 gears, and how many have the one tooth under. It's early enough in the development of this class to find a solution to this problem as both parties messed up. 2. We want everybody to run the same gear ratio, the question is: Does it matter which one?

[Gootz 142M]

I'm with you Jeff. I was thinking the same thing myself. Based on what you read here we would need a fight referee just for the pits alone.

[mike ross]

I did go back and review the minutes from 2005 from Atlanta. When we got to the D class section of the meeting. We approved 2 D motors. One being the Tahatsu with an advisory commitee. The other being the Super thunderbolt on a Bass tower , Mercuy 55H tower, 44XS tower. My last sentance was phrased. Also all gear ratios will be 1 to 1 . There are several others who were there and witnessed this and have stated that this is the gear ratio that was approved for all D class participants. Remember the Tahatsu this is the only motor we race that has a commitee set up to make changes "during the racing season if needed" to change what ever makes sence for pairity. We need to thank Ed for sticking his neck out and getting this approved in lew of a lot of resistance. We need data for the Tahatsu so that going forward we know what makes sence to keep the playing field fair know matter what motor you are racing. I know the Mercury drivers probably feel like we are going to eliminate there motor's chances to compete and the Tahatsu drivers feel the same at times. We are getting close. Maybe not perfect yet, but I think we have come along way in a short time. Mike