New Race Season Format?...

[dholt]

A different approach.....

I'll offer this instead.

Don't worry about how many races you have.

Worry instead about how much racing goes on at each event.

Races are poorly attended because of:

1. Location/race course
2. Expense
3. Time

So...give people more racing at the events you do have.

I'd rather take the time and money to travel to 1 event and race 6 heats in one class in a weekend instead of going to 2 events to run 4 heats each weekend.

Give people the chance to race more at each race and you'll see particpation rise.

The cost of travel cannot be ignored anymore. It is a real issue impacting our particpation numbers.

Of course...you need the time in the day to run all those heats. Which you'd have...if we'd all wake up and limit the size of our race format/classes.

[kws]

Dana
the only way that can be accomplished is to drop a bunch of classes. what classes do you want to drop?

[dholt]

There are 2 ways of looking at class structure.

If an event was J/stock only... or J/Mod only...then you wouldn't have to cut a thing.

But the two categories have essentially merged...with many drivers owning both types of equipment. So, having a stock or mod only event is seemingly out of the question these days.

Therefore...I'd go with:

JH
JR
AXSH (with age limits. 18 years old)
AXSR (max age 18 as well)


ASH
ASR
BSH
BSR
20SSH
CSH
CSR
DSH

AMH
AMR
BMH
CMH
DMH
DMR
FEH
FER


You could still have a Stock or Mod only event...and race each class 3-4 times over the weekend. But if you ran both categories...you probably wouldn't have time to race more than each class twice.

[Al Peffley]

Reducing Classes

My thoughts for oval course races (marathons are something else) are (not unique, by any means):

Stock (only 1 class each):
J (First-level, Beginner class with its own Nationals)
A
B and/or 20SS (can be run together, except at divisionals/nationals)*
C
D

Mod (only 1 class each)
B-Mod
C-Mod
D-Mod
FEH

Some classes should be combined, but SCORED SEPARATELY if there are only 3-5 boats in each class (excluding divisionals & national championship races.) If needed: J & A can run together; B & C can run together (probably not very often); D & D-Mod can run together, or, D-MOD and FEH/R can run together if numbers are low (3-5) in each class. No more than 10 boats per heat on most small lakes; 12 boats per heat if the course is on a large body of water (like Depue, IL). There would be no A-Mod class.

All the XS "hybrid" classes go away. If the kids/beginners want to run more J-stock heats, then let them run them in J-Stock, but get rid of the rest of the J hybrids!

Pro classes (including OSY 400) can be run on a separate race day or separate sanctioned weekend on the Left Coast (just like USTS on the East Coast and Mid-West.) J-Pro goes away in the "Pro" classes. OSY 400 adopts most UIM rules by 2010 (except foot "profiling") and becomes the novice entry level for "Pro" racing. The only reason I excluded foot profiling in OSY is that I don't think Yamato will produce the gear boxes for us to be able to easily retrofit the existing 102's, 302's, or a new 402 model feet that have already been profiled to our unique APBA specs.

This would make it simpler for racers and families and eliminate the need to haul 4-6 boats to a race. I would come back to stock/mod classes in APBA if this happened.

Note*: This is an East Coast/West Coast cultural thing -- seems most B's are run in the East Coast/Mid-West, and the West Coast has a lot of 20SS rigs, but no B's...

Al Peffley

[kws]

Al
I don't think putting the J's out with the A's is a good Idea. yes i understand they will only be together at the start. But there are more valid reasons for not doing it than doing it. I don't know about the other regions but in R7 i feel that what you suggest would turn break even race sites in to money losers due to low boat counts but thats just my 2 cents

[G Stillwill]

I can just picture the wrecks now trying to run J,s with A,s with at least a 15 mile an hour differance in speed. First of all trying to get through the J,s at the start just hoping one doesnt drift in front of you not only that scaring the hell out of the kids passing that close to them. A certain few keep wanting to change the J division when its growing faster then the stock ,mod or pro division and that is where the future of racing is in case anyone is clueless. My hats off to Mark, Earnie and the J Division for figuring out how to make things grow. AX is growing with leaps and bounds and without putting age limits on it but by making the min weight low enough that the older drivers cant get down that low so are handicaped with weight. If you dont want to spend the time at the races your in the wrong sport , its an all day event so get used to it or find another sport. When we only had 9 classes it still was an all day affair as there was elims in almost every class. I go to the races to race but that is just one small part of it, the biggest is part is hanging out with friends and having fun and that is what boat racing is about and I been there for 45 years. Theres my 4 cents

[kws]

once or twice a season we have people over 18 sign up for AXS just to have enough boats for a race. I would hate to see those AXS drivers have to leave their boats on the trailer because of an age rule. both for their sake and the clubs pocket book due to 4 less entry fees. granted its a smaller dollar amount than stock but a hit is still a hit. I feel that while it takes up time to run AXS. It is a boon to the conducting clubs. As most ASX drivers are the older J drivers + the newer A drivers (no matter how old)and 1 or 2 drivers that have parents that don't want their "too old for J kids" to run A yet. Everytime you have boats running 2 classes its pure bonus as far as entry fees go.

[kws]

I agree that travel costs are a major factor in our sport. Both for existing racers and more importantly potential new racers and it seems that the only sulution to that is more local races by every club to draw in new people that are not willing or unable to travel as much as is neccesary now (for many its time as much as money) WE all know we travel to the races as much for fellowship with our boat racing family as the racing itself but that is hard to sell to my friends at home. let alone someone I just know.

[kws]

Darrel please discribe the rental program you have

[Al Peffley]

Maybe not J's with A's, but what about other class combinations?

OK, I agree that putting a bunch of little kids in J's with bigger kids and adults in A's is maybe too much (especially when there are a decent number of J's and A's registered in each race.) HAVE A NOVICE CLASS WITH MIXED BOATS AND REALLY STRICT RULES, IF NEED BE.

The schedule is way TOO LONG, and the excuse that "...dollars will be lost..." is always brought up by heritage DRIVERS who want to race multiple classes to get more heats in, no matter what the boat count is in the heat. Wake up people, we are losing dollars because our racing, to many spectators and family/friends on the beach that I have interviewed over the last three years, is getting VERY BORING. Who are you trying to cater to -- two or three drivers who want to cross over to hybrid classes (like AXS), or the other 30 drivers and owners attending (or wishing to attend drivers) who will be entered in fuller classes (that may not even get two heats in for the day)?

Have the novices race the first day and then watch the experienced drivers run the rest of the sanction; or use your own imagination on scheduling a little so the day starts at 10:00 am and ends at 4:00 pm. I did not spend $15,000 on racing equipment in three (250ccH Pro, C-Stock/OSY, & C-Mod) APBA/AOF entry classes to watch 10 boat owners who spent $6,000 run five different classes on the same race day (selfish thoughts by me, huh?) I don't have problems with entry level racing! I have problems with unequal opportunity to race because some are not established racing members with a child protoge who is racing for their family name in every class that they can get away with.

The problem is the same -- too many classes and not enough boats per class to make the day interesting. I sat on the beach all day today at an excellent local boat race site and watched about eight heats of APBA limited inboard, drag boat, and OPC classes with only three to four boats starting or finishing a heat. We have a problem, Houston. We can choose to ignore our class number shortage issues or do something about it. Either we give more support to the strong classes and make the races worth driving to, or we loose even more membership and family support. I paid over $100 in a day's expenses to attend the local race today (60 miles from home), and I did not even compete (because my class was not invited to this particular race.)

Most of the older, more established drivers might be pleased about our current number of classes and race venue, but what about the views of the race volunteers and family members of racers? I dare you to ask your family, friends, and race volunteers (including your faithful crew members) what can be IMPROVED in our sport. I am not single, so I DO listen to my family's view on the venue and race attendence costs. If you want to "subsidize" the local races, find prize money (casinos like racing), donate money to your local race club instead of buying more outdated equipment in odd classes, and help more of your local class members with their equipment problems and setups. End of soapbox speech...

Al Peffley

[propnuts]

No

The proposal to have less races counting towards high points comes up at the SORC meeting EVERY year from the same people that would like to win high points without having to go to a lot of races. EVERY year so far it has fortunately been voted down for this simple reason, any proposal that would discourage local races, or discourage racers from attending as many races as possible is bad for local clubs and bad for the sport. Hopefully this reasoning will prevail again this year when that same tired proposal gets trotted out again. Tony

[Dave M]

An Opinion

It seems this discussion comes up every winter, getting started early this year.

In my many many years of racing experience racing boats is an all day affair. I can't remember any race that is not. Some organizations get done earlier than others.

The biggest enemy to growing boat racing are the racers themselves. Resistence to change is over powering in this sport. Nothing is going to change in the near future. Perhaps we are marketing to the wrong crowd ? Market towards the racers and sell it. It seems boat racing is going nowhere fast. Some regions are doing great, a lot are not.

To have more races locally you need more local racers.. You need a big voice any more to obtain a new spot. With all the housing going up around lakes that don't want to give it up for a weekend, we have our work cut out if we continue down the same path.

Change is needed, try to be open minded about change.

[MGallagher]

Guess it was a bad idea lol!

Dave makes the most sense to me. Change is needed in a sport with a lot of stubborn folk.

The Steering Committee looks like they got a good grasp on things, and hopefully we will all alow them to do there job.

[BP125V]

wait a second

don't confuse experience for stubborness.

the sport will only grow if individual clubs work hard and promote local racing.

Bill

[Cameraboy]

I'll offer this instead.

Don't worry about how many races you have.

Worry instead about how much racing goes on at each event.

Races are poorly attended because of:

1. Location/race course
2. Expense
3. Time

So...give people more racing at the events you do have.

I'd rather take the time and money to travel to 1 event and race 6 heats in one class in a weekend instead of going to 2 events to run 4 heats each weekend.

Give people the chance to race more at each race and you'll see particpation rise.

The cost of travel cannot be ignored anymore. It is a real issue impacting our particpation numbers.

Of course...you need the time in the day to run all those heats. Which you'd have...if we'd all wake up and limit the size of our race format/classes.

I've been thinking along the same lines, Dana. We're trying a new race at an old site this year Labor Day weekend Small course, small pits. The ideal would be to have 20 trailers show up, with four entries per trailer per day. Three heats per class. All stock and a couple other classes. Flat entry fee of $30. Testing Saturday morning. Off the water by 4pm Sunday (11 hours on the water for the weekend - save on ambulance) - head home and still have the full Monday off, or stay a night and play at the beach.

I won't get the ideal, though. 4-5 hour drive for a lot of folks. No camping in or adjacent to the pits. A week before a records race. Don't think I'll get 80 entries - probably 65 at best. I'll have to sneak in a couple more classes to get that many entries, and really juggle schedule-wise. Can't go flat fee, because I'd have to raise it and folks then wouldn't run multiple entrires. Even try a couple of gimmicks like modified LeMans starts for some classes and a type of poker run. Probably have to start chopping clock to squeeze it into the self-imposed time limit.

If only one knew for sure what the price points were that drive the behavior for the three reasons you listed. People seem to show up to "backyard" races even if the water/location sucks. They will seem to travel a ways if there is camping available in the pits. But would people travel a ways to a not-so-optimal race site without camping if there was more racing available for the same cost as other races? Or would entry fees need to be drastically reduced? What would be the tipping point? It's probably different for each racer, which makes it hell for club's to decide what races to put on and how much to charge (or how much time to put into securing sponsors).