Feedback Please

[jon66w]

SO future

Let me first say that, I do not speak for Racing Outboards and this is my understanding of the situation. The Sidewinder project is a little behind the schedule that was set last year. We were hoping to have some motors available by the end of June. Some of the things that have caused delays are going to pay off in the long run. Besides design and performance issues, lining up vendors (high quality and reliable vendors) is a grueling task. To develop a product that our sport is depending on for the long term is a huge responsibility. Racing Outboards takes that responsibility very seriously. In order to produce the quality product that we expect at a reasonable cost, both now and in the foreseeable future, takes time. Every part must be designed, engineered and thoroughly tested for consistant precision, performance and durability. Even the inspection process was taken into consideration in the design of these new motors. The end result will be a dependable and affordable "Stock Racing Motor" that meets OUR needs well into the future. We are all anxious, be patient, it will be worth the wait.
In answer to your immediate question, we're hoping to bring 4 or 5 - 15c.i. motors to the nationals and they should be available for purchase soon after. The 20c.i. is not far behind, all of the design work is about done and they expect to be testing before the end of the season.
Racing Outboards, the Bass/Tohatsu, the 44XS & the Yamato 302, are the future of Stock Outboard. Their success and our success are tied together as one. As long as we support them, they will support us.
Class Structure - BSR (20c.i. Sidewinder / 25XS)
The 25XS is not compatable on the race course with CSR. We don't want to lose any of these drivers so we gave them a place to race. 25 Runabout as we currently have, goes away. We don't believe that the 25 Merc has much growth potential because the motor has been out of production for years.
As far as 25XSH, we believe that through attrition, lack of parts etc., eventually that class will go away as well. In the meantime, we don't want to do anything to artificially stimulate growth in a class without a motor in production.
BSH (20c.i. Sidewinder / Yamato 80)
The Yamato 80 has been out of production for many years. Parts are becoming scarce and the speed range is compatable with what we expect the Sidewinder to be. As time goes on the class will evolve from the Yamato to the Sidewinder. Current Yamato owners may continue to run their 80's well into the future. New members should be encouraged to buy the Sidewinder. Note: The Sidewinder will probably become faster than the Yamato once the normal evolution of boat & prop work takes place.
The SORC wants to be able to promote all classes with motors available and in production. We want new people to have the opportunity to compete on a high level with new and available equiptment for the forseeable future. When somebody buys into Stock Outboard, it needs to be a good investment for themselves and their family.

I agree with this approach, see my posts of 2/1/07,#333 and 2/2/07, #325."SO Yamato Rule Changes"
We should give Sidewinder and Bass a long term commitment for the lower/unit foot if we feel both are well designed and robust enough for foreseeable future powerheads. We can then be prepared with just a adapter plate needed if we have to upgrade to say a 4 stroke or a low polluting engine such as new Evinrude 2 stroke. This is coming whether we like it or not. Also, new drivers could buy a engine with cowls and starter from a selected dealer who would buy a lower unit and plate and convert it for him. He could save the other parts and convert it back to a fishing engine when it was time to upgrade to the next legal engine as well as being able to at least start testing with his existing propellers.
Jon Walters





Jon Walters

[drbyrne55]

Feed back,

John,
Thanks for your efforts. Stock Outboarders are some of the finest people I have met.

I believe you said "Our ultimate goal is to get back to one motor per class" and seeing "growth in stock outboard. As a newcomer at age 40 to APBA, I have found out that a guy that has not raced competition before will have difficultly running up front due to lack of experience (not boat speed) or cause bodily injury trying to do so ( brother...2 blow overs out 5 weekends). I didn't realize that 6 months ago, so rather than quit, we tested more and now have agreed to run our stuff more safely and/or make it available to a younger experienced stock driver (Kyle). Bottom line, I hope my 7 year old son will take to J stock in 2 years. Financial investment is always a concern, and setting up a class is very expensive. Yes, I would spend the $4000 for the Sidewinder 15 for my son's A set up plus boats, plus cut suit .... what $8000??? add $4000 for the second engine??? That's a lot of dough to get a nine year old on the water.

Some newbies may view the SideWinder 15 as essentially the Sidewinder 20 (re-bored larger). We already have invested in 2 302 Yamatos and boats. Buying new Sidewinders for A stock and B stock is too big of a hit $$$. Why not have A stock go to the Siderwinder 15 and let B stock have the option of using the larger bored Sidewinder 15 that will be called the 20 or allowing the 302(not 102) to run restricted. This creates much more flexiblity and ultimately would grow the B class from both ends and essentially supports growth in A stock and C stock. This supports both the Sidewinder and the Yamato 302. I have confirmed that the 15 can be rebored into a 20. So those who bought a 15 can grow into B stock while those who transition from a 102 into a 302 in C stock will have flexibility backwards to B stock via restriction. You will always have a parity issue having different engines running against each other. Not really a big deal for the new guy as we run a 302 in C stock and statistically speaking will get beat by a 102 at Nationals. Furthermore, we run a 302 restricted in 20SSH but realize that the 80's usually win Nationals.... we will still try and try hard we will.

Team 69R's view may be rather myopic but a newbie's view none the less and may represent that of your average new guy.

For growth we see: current model engines

A stock with Sidewinder "A".... 15SS with "15" ($4000)

B stock with Sidewinder 20 ($4000) (larger bore) or restricted 302 ($2400)

C stock with Yamato 302 ($2400)

D stock with Tohatsu ($5000)

* add out of production motors as you presented.

Dan

[ryan_4z]

The 15 isn't an A motor though.

[Cameraboy]

click on the link below and read my post.

http://216.120.234.56/forums/showthr...1373#post81373

Dan, I actually think that is the right approach; the problem (aside from SO having a strong bias against four-strokes, justified or not) is that nobody has stepped up and said:

"Here, I have designed a tower/gearcase with an adapter for each of the X, Y, and Z four-stroke powerheads. They are geared/have a new logic chip (chip provided by the mfg.) to generate similar rpm and torque to the prop shaft that we see now. The complete package is similar in weight to what we have now."

However, someone did step up and produce a prototype 15ss and 20ss motor with plans for more. That's the best offer on the table right now. Is it putting our eggs in one basket - to a certain extent, yes. But where are the other baskets?

The restricted 302 issue is the toughest deal in this plan. I happen to agree with Sean's viewpoint on it being a way to "grow into" CSH think it is a compelling argument (as John and the rest of the committee heard in the conference calls). But just as compelling is the need to creat the incentive for people to buy the new motor. Racing Outboards won't survive the 10 years it took people to start buying 302s.

A concern I currently have is that sticker shock will have a chilling effect on the whole process. But I'm not sure how. On the one hand, stock folks seem to want to run more than 1-2 classes with a motor that may cost $4K. On the other hand, I see entry fee behavior that indicates they won't pay a higher entry fee even if they get an extra heat per class - which tells me they will only pay a certain amount even if it provides more racing opportunity.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't know if being able running the same Sidewinder in both A and 15ss (with a carb changeout) will make someone more likely to pay $4K for the motor than if they can only run it in 15ss.

The 20ss motor doesn't at this time provide a choice for anything but 1 hydro and runabout class (B). You can still run the Y-80, and now you have a BSR to run it in too. And a Y-80 could be a legal motor in Stock Outboard Classic. The intent of the Plan is that you'll not be competitive in B with a Y-80 after a couple of years - but will you pay $4K to switch? Which force will be greater - the desire to keep racing the class, or sticker shock? (Dan Byrne just just covered part of this in his post much more coherently)


Oh crap - I've written another article.

[drbyrne55]

A stock

The 15 isn't an A motor though.

the table indicates ...a stock .. is Sidewinder "A" which I assume is the same block.

[drbyrne55]

Support

Mike, I agree ...not an easy issue ....

Support the new "A" and "15" exclusively in A stock and 15SS....supports the Sidewinder.

Use B stock as a transition class supporting both the 302 and Sidewinder.... this will create growth as newbies can see their investment being good when moving from "A" or 15SS to B stock while the C stock racer can see their investment in the 302 being good having flexibilty to run in B stock if one desires. It's perception. This helps keep costs down and you are right about hearing about the cost every weekend... and that's not about adding $4000 engines to your trailer.

This supports both suppliers, I believe the Yamoto dealer has bought about 100 302's to support Stock outboard.

Dan

Dan, I actually think that is the right approach; the problem (aside from SO having a strong bias against four-strokes, justified or not) is that nobody has stepped up and said:

"Here, I have designed a tower/gearcase with an adapter for each of the X, Y, and Z four-stroke powerheads. They are geared/have a new logic chip (chip provided by the mfg.) to generate similar rpm and torque to the prop shaft that we see now. The complete package is similar in weight to what we have now."

However, someone did step up and produce a prototype 15ss and 20ss motor with plans for more. That's the best offer on the table right now. Is it putting our eggs in one basket - to a certain extent, yes. But where are the other baskets?

The restricted 302 issue is the toughest deal in this plan. I happen to agree with Sean's viewpoint on it being a way to "grow into" CSH think it is a compelling argument (as John and the rest of the committee heard in the conference calls). But just as compelling is the need to creat the incentive for people to buy the new motor. Racing Outboards won't survive the 10 years it took people to start buying 302s.

A concern I currently have is that sticker shock will have a chilling effect on the whole process. But I'm not sure how. On the one hand, stock folks seem to want to run more than 1-2 classes with a motor that may cost $4K. On the other hand, I see entry fee behavior that indicates they won't pay a higher entry fee even if they get an extra heat per class - which tells me they will only pay a certain amount even if it provides more racing opportunity.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't know if being able running the same Sidewinder in both A and 15ss (with a carb changeout) will make someone more likely to pay $4K for the motor than if they can only run it in 15ss.

The 20ss motor doesn't at this time provide a choice for anything but 1 hydro and runabout class (B). You can still run the Y-80, and now you have a BSR to run it in too. And a Y-80 could be a legal motor in Stock Outboard Classic. The intent of the Plan is that you'll not be competitive in B with a Y-80 after a couple of years - but will you pay $4K to switch? Which force will be greater - the desire to keep racing the class, or sticker shock? (Dan Byrne just just covered part of this in his post much more coherently)


Oh crap - I've written another article.

[mike ross]

Another cool thing the sidwinder will offer once all the versions are up and running. A kid could get one for A. then when he wants to move up to say 15SS he only needs to buy a block and pistons rather than a whole motor. The same would hold true for a person moving to B they could just buy the parts to convert there sidwinder to a B. This is part of the reason they are taking a little longer is they want all these versions to have this exchangability option going forward. Mike

[D_Allen_III]

Will race committees provide extra time for people who want to swap pistons and blocks so they can run different classes with the same base motor like they currently do with restrictor plates? Being able to run three classes with one motor would be pretty nice...

[mike ross]

Your a real funny guy !!!!!!! Just a little more info so everyone knows who the program will work. Mike

[Norm Schaub]

Will the BSR class still be a roll up only class? Or will side fins be allowed?

[22W]

Why not have A stock go to the Siderwinder 15 and let B stock have the option of using the larger bored Sidewinder 15 that will be called the 20 or allowing the 302(not 102) to run restricted. This creates much more flexiblity and ultimately would grow the B class from both ends and essentially supports growth in A stock and C stock. This supports both the Sidewinder and the Yamato 302. I have confirmed that the 15 can be rebored into a 20. So those who bought a 15 can grow into B stock while those who transition from a 102 into a 302 in C stock will have flexibility backwards to B stock via restriction. You will always have a parity issue having different engines running against each other. Not really a big deal for the new guy as we run a 302 in C stock and statistically speaking will get beat by a 102 at Nationals. Furthermore, we run a 302 restricted in 20SSH but realize that the 80's usually win Nationals.... we will still try and try hard we will.
Dan

Dan,

Although I appreciate what you are saying here, there is no way that this will work. If you put a B boat out there with a bunch of Yamatos, the guy in the B boat will come back looking for his mommy. I am sure you are familiar with the ocean that the Yamato classes create. Now imagine a much smaller boat at a lot lighter weight. NOT a good idea. I tried this in 25 runabout with the Merc and even at my size, (215lbs) I was terrified to be anywhere but in clean water. Certainly not fun with gun jumpers. Besides, we have too many engine types confusing spectators as it is. We have to simplify things, not complicate them.

Norm,

At this time we are reasonably certain that the new BSR will retain the roll-up only status. It will be geared towards the middleweight (200lb) driver and a 10'6" boat. This should fill the current gap between the 15SSR and the CSR.

Ryan

[14-H]

Will race committees provide extra time for people who want to swap pistons and blocks so they can run different classes with the same base motor like they currently do with restrictor plates? Being able to run three classes with one motor would be pretty nice...

With a Hot Rod, this takes about 20 minutes. You don't even need to take the carb off or re-check the height of the prop shaft. Ed.

[stu_racing]

I think this format is really good. Originally I thought the restricted Y102 and Y302 would be good to include in the initial years to increase numbers but the more I think about it the more I think they should be not included. I find my 20ssh ride to be a wilder ride than my CSH ride because there is less weight in the back of the boat using a motor that has a ton of torque coming out of the corners. In order to make it safe, one would have to reduce the weight of the Yamato classes to make it safe, and having 40 less pounds in 20ssh than CSH is enough for me.
I also realize that a lot of people are becoming a little impatient for the sidewinder to be available for sale but as an investor, I would rather spend my money on something I know will be reliable than something that may need more work and reguire me to spend more money in the future. But I will keep my Y80 for a couple of years until a sidewinder becomes a proven, sound investment. Not because I am fearful that it will not be as fast as the Y80, but instead to see whether the motor will hold up. I am not deterred by hard work in making it work, after all I invested in a Y302 when they could not win on the east coast.
Congrats to the Steering Comittee in helping us find some more direction in this sport that I (as well as many of my fellow racers) believe should be shared with more people.

[csh2z]

Guys, Keep this in the back of your mind. There is flexability built into the plan. It is after all, a plan and we are going to have to tweek it here and there to make it work. The goal will remain the same as we all agree that these changes need to be made and we wholeheartedly believe that this goal will produce the best results for the future of Stock Outboard. the flexability we have is the time frame in which the transitions take place. The current time frame proposed is the, best case scenerio. If a plan like this had been put in place a few years ago, 25 runabout would be dead and there would be no restricted motors in the current 20SSH. Unfortunately, there was no plan, and because of the infussion of the 102/302's in those classes, some people invested alot of time and money into 20SSH & 25XSR for the second ride. Remember, the reason for this plan is so that we can all prepare for our own racing careers with the knowlege of what lies ahead.
Time to go to Sharptown!

[Ron Selewach]

Sidewinder update

Hello everyone - I have been trying to work up another update between the interruptions of my real job, but thought I should take a minute to respond to this most interesting thread with a brief update on Sidewinder progress. When I first bought the company, there were not enough parts remaining to assemble even one Hot Rod engine; worse yet many of the patterns, dies, machines, fixtures, etc used to make the parts were missing or worn out. Since everything was going to have to be recreated anyway, and it became evident that the rotary crank cost would be prohibitive, we set out designing a more affordable approach that would also be more reliable. That takes time, and we wanted to do it right - quickly bringing out a half-thought out engine that still needed more engineering to get it right would only frustrate early purchasers. There is a new expectation of reliability created by the yamato motors and we wanted to meet or exceed that expectation. So the engineering had to be right, it had to be stable because we wouldn't have a second chance.

Well, I'm happy to report that we are officially in full production. The new design is finished, which has allowed us to have new patterns made for casting the block and crankcase, saddle, clamp brackets, gearfoot, and so on. Ed is machining the first castings as we speak, and they look great - the foundry work is absolutely first class, which translates to a more durable part. New pistons are in, connecting rods are in, cranks are in production; everything is coming together now. Earlier I made a couple of predictions about when motors would be available. As the owner of my other business, I was used to making things happen when I said they would, but in the case of Racing Outboards, we are dependent on suppliers and other vendors who sometimes tell you what you want to hear, but deliver what and when they are ready, not when they committed; point being that Ed and I can't control every aspect. At any rate, we are in full production - parts are arriving daily, all kinds of machining is going on - looks like a production operation in Ed's shop instead of a machine shop. The big delay, though, had been our desire to get it right the first time out.

We will have production motors, not prototypes, at the Nationals in Washington - that will be a great time to introduce the motor to the west coast racers. I can tell you that the wait will be well worth it, and I thank you all for your enthusiam. Being in full production is a real milestone, meaning all the engineering is done, quality vendors identified, and sources identified for other parts. New launch carts are available, and we're working with a trailer manufacturer to produce lightweight, streamlined boat trailers to help alleviate the high gas costs of getting to races, we've been talking with boat manufacturers to create CNC routed boat kits that will be easy to assemble, and on and on. The website is coming along nicely and should be finished in 2 - 3 weeks. I see the enthusiasm leading to impatience, but we really are trying to do what the sport needs - new equipment of all kinds, all in one place - to help build the sport back up.

So, guys and gals, we're there, its just a matter of weeks now.

Thanks again,
Ron