ATTN: PRO Drivers

[raceright]

Mark didn,t know ya was such a tough guy but believe you me Kristi can take it and watch out she can dish it out to. Lets see if I can remember some of ya clouded questions oh yea I made the motion to remove radios from open boats was asked to like most things brought up to the commission
membership asks for things and commission puts it out to all the members to make the choices so if ya have any beef its with ya fellow driver not ya commission. Ya should of seen Steve cringe when this motion was made.

Oh I know my real motivation was to have guys who want to use radios
and be real safe get a capusle boat and add to capsule numbers. yea right

radios safety,radios safety, radios safety, radios safety thats right complain about no radios cause ya want to be so safe uh hu uh hu uh hu

oh yea if ya was at inverness and lake eales ya would of seen me measure the distance above helmets in every capsule at the race. Also a test piece of capsule construction has been fabrictated and sent for testing. Also pickles will be rounded with a one inch radius in the near future Bob Wartinger is aware of my efforts to increase safety in the safest classes in apba pro racing . now let see what anyone else has done to make the less safe boats safer? Oh I forgot radios ya know what sell this garbage to someone else

[benf27]

radios safety,radios safety, radios safety, radios safety thats right complain about no radios cause ya want to be so safe uh hu uh hu uh hu

??????????

[raceright]

??????????

Means no one believes drivers want radios only for safety . Results changes in rules.
Nice thing about changes they can always be changed

Pat

[Composite Specialties]

Facts

Pat, I am not trying to be a tough guy here, just want some answers. I am not bothered by you or Kristi or anyone else so there is no need to warn me about anyone. I feel certain that I have been involved in capsules and safety much, much longer than you have and have the safety cell certification to prove it. I have worked with Bob Wartinger and respect him well so thank goodness he is involved in this to oversee what ever comes of the safety issues.

Now, for the radios, I could care less what you or anyone else thinks about radios. No one has yet revealed the issues that lead to the radio ruling, just evasive rumblings referring back several years of issues. You seem to know what everyone else is thinking about radios so lets hear what they are saying about them.

The problem has always been the facts and the lack of communication of the facts. There are no clouded views here Pat, just looking for the facts and no one wants to give them.

So, lets stop the bickering and move on with this. What ever comes of this is fine as long as there is more safety in the end either with or without radios, with or without safer composite cockpit sides, tips and safety cells.

[nicf14]

Why is everybody so worked up? We are just asking a few simple questions. Where is the data proving radios are unsafe? I have tried to make neck restraints mandatory and have been denied for three years because there was a "lack of data". To bring radios to a vote there must have been an overwhelming amount of data. Let us see it!

[Joe J]

Nic:

This is not quite how things work. Anyone, and I truly mean anyone can have an item placed on the agenda for the national meeting. From there the commission discussing the item, and if enough commissioners feel strongly about it, it goes to ballot.

The radio vote is the perfect example. Ed Thirly had it placed on the agenda, the commission voted that it should go to the driver's, and the rest is history.

Now maybe it's your turn. Put together a proposal, send it to your local commissioner ( Bill Tetro) and have it placed on the agenda for the 2008 meeting in Detroit.

Joe

[QUOTE=nicf14;79278
To bring radios to a vote there must have been an overwhelming amount of data. Let us see it![/QUOTE]

[bill van steenwyk]

facts about radio use and lack of

Hi Mark:

You have asked about facts regard the use of radios and/or banning them by PRO racers. Here are just a few facts from someone who was intimately involved in the first discussions a couple of years back and wrote the majority of the appeal on the rule passed by the at the time PRO Commission as a "safety rule" banning their use without a vote of the membership at that time.

FACT # 1. After the action was taken by the commission to ban radio use, the chairman of the apba safety committee, Bob Wartinger, the chairman of the APBA Rescue Committe, Brian Small, and the liason from the at the time APBA Insurance Carrier, All wrote either letters to the PRO Commisssion or to the APBA official publication Propellor, saying that radios communication was a GOOD thing, and that the decision to ban should be reconsidered, or recinded.

FACT # 2. ALL this input was turned down by the PRO Commission when they met to reconsider the orginal decision made, along with do***entation showing a large contingent of the membership did not approve of the orginal action taken to ban them.

FACT 3. Along with another APBA member I filed an appeal of the orginal ruling banning radios with the appropiate committee/persons in APBA at an appeal cost of 1000.00. The appeal to recind the ruled was upheld and the ruling said that the reason the rule was being recinded was because the PRO Commission HAD NO AUTHORITY to make such a rule at that time. Unfortionatley they did not rule on the legality of radios use per se, only that the commisssion overstepped their bounds by handling the matter as they did. We would have much preferred that the ruling had gone further and stated that the use of radios was legal, but that did not happen, and led to the situation that took place earlier this spring with the matter being given a vote by the membership.

FACT # 4. Since it is a known fact by the folks in the "political know" that only about 30-35% of the membership vote on ANY issue put on a ballot, it was probably to be expected that based on two years to get the ducks in a row and all the stars aligned, and figuring the number of votes that could be counted on by the folks on the side of banning, that the election would come out the way it did. The vote to ban was won by about 12-14 votes. You don't have to be a mathematical whiz to count the votes of the commission members and family to come up with the winning margin. I will have to congratulate them. They got their way, but I hope not at the cost of an injury or death that could have been avoided with communication.

FACT # 5. In the appeal to allow radios filed two years ago, we stipulated that we would not only accept but wanted, "monitors" or whatever you want to call them, listening in to any radio conversation, and if ANY negative comments such as "cut him off" etc. were used it would result in immediate disqualification. As previously mentioned, due to the rule legality itself being ruled on, that did not happen. The Commission is, or should be aware of that stipulation, as they had access to all our appeal material.

Based on the above,what do you think the reasons for pushing this are? I can't for the life of me figure it out. As one who did run over someone and injure them badly, and was not able to be warned in advance because I had no equipment availiable to be warned by, either from a spotter or an official, I don't now and never will understand it. I can only put it down to stubborness and "I'm right and everyone else is wrong." I don't say this with any malice, just that it is the only thing I can figure out. As long as this attitude exists, an unwillingness to allow a driver to avail themselves of any and all equipment that could save an injury or a life, I am glad my driving days are over. I only hope that someone dear to the people that are pushing this are never put in the situation of having to second guess themselves.

There is a lot more to this issue but anything more would be getting into personalities and that serves no pupose, other than to further be reminded how some people put their own interests above the majority, at the majorities risk.

[bill van steenwyk]

facts about radio use and lack of

Hi Mark:

You have asked about facts regard the use of radios and/or banning them by PRO racers. Here are just a few facts from someone who was intimately involved in the first discussions a couple of years back and wrote the majority of the appeal on the rule passed by the at the time PRO Commission as a "safety rule" banning their use without a vote of the membership at that time.

FACT # 1. After the action was taken by the commission to ban radio use, the chairman of the apba safety committee, Bob Wartinger, the chairman of the APBA Rescue Committe, Brian Small, and the liason from the at the time APBA Insurance Carrier, All wrote either letters to the PRO Commisssion or to the APBA official publication Propellor, saying that radios communication was a GOOD thing, and that the decision to ban should be reconsidered, or recinded.

FACT # 2. ALL this input was turned down by the PRO Commission when they met to reconsider the orginal decision made, along with do***entation showing a large contingent of the membership did not approve of the orginal action taken to ban them.

FACT 3. Along with another APBA member I filed an appeal of the orginal ruling banning radios with the appropiate committee/persons in APBA at an appeal cost of 1000.00. The appeal to recind the ruled was upheld and the ruling said that the reason the rule was being recinded was because the PRO Commission HAD NO AUTHORITY to make such a rule at that time. Unfortionatley they did not rule on the legality of radios use per se, only that the commisssion overstepped their bounds by handling the matter as they did. We would have much preferred that the ruling had gone further and stated that the use of radios was legal, but that did not happen, and led to the situation that took place earlier this spring with the matter being given a vote by the membership.

FACT # 4. Since it is a known fact by the folks in the "political know" that only about 30-35% of the membership vote on ANY issue put on a ballot, it was probably to be expected that based on two years to get the ducks in a row and all the stars aligned, and figuring the number of votes that could be counted on by the folks on the side of banning, that the election would come out the way it did. The vote to ban was won by about 12-14 votes. You don't have to be a mathematical whiz to count the votes of the commission members and family to come up with the winning margin. I will have to congratulate them. They got their way, but I hope not at the cost of an injury or death that could have been avoided with communication.

FACT # 5. In the appeal to allow radios filed two years ago, we stipulated that we would not only accept but wanted, "monitors" or whatever you want to call them, listening in to any radio conversation, and if ANY negative comments such as "cut him off" etc. were used it would result in immediate disqualification. As previously mentioned, due to the rule legality itself being ruled on, that did not happen. The Commission is, or should be aware of that stipulation, as they had access to all our appeal material.

Based on the above,what do you think the reasons for pushing this are? I can't for the life of me figure it out. As one who did run over someone and injure them badly, and was not able to be warned in advance because I had no equipment availiable to be warned by, either from a spotter or an official, I don't now and never will understand it. I can only put it down to stubborness and "I'm right and everyone else is wrong." I don't say this with any malice, just that it is the only thing I can figure out. As long as this attitude exists, an unwillingness to allow a driver to avail themselves of any and all equipment that could save an injury or a life, I am glad my driving days are over. I only hope that someone dear to the people that are pushing this are never put in the situation of having to second guess themselves.

There is a lot more to this issue but anything more would be getting into personalities and that serves no pupose, other than to further be reminded how some people put their own interests above the majority, at the majorities risk.

[Composite Specialties]

Thanks

Thanks Bill for the information. That is all I was asking for from the beginning, just information with the facts as to who and why this was started. I am so amazed at how quickly people start the name calling and wordy threats on here. As I stated before, I am not botherd, scared, afraid, etc... of anyone and will continue to speak my mind about any issue I feel strongly about.

Thanks again for your information Bill.

[raceright]

Thanks Bill for the information. That is all I was asking for from the beginning, just information with the facts as to who and why this was started. I am so amazed at how quickly people start the name calling and wordy threats on here. As I stated before, I am not botherd, scared, afraid, etc... of anyone and will continue to speak my mind about any issue I feel strongly about.

Thanks again for your information Bill.

Here are some facts
Bills item 4
145 driver voted on radio issue membership is about 153 thats not 35% more like95%. Monitors he says was requested well if the people that wanted radios would of implemented this it would of never came up as a issue.
Some form of monitoring will be implemented very very soon.

As for Marc saying He has been involved is capsule safety longer than me
would like to find out when ya had ya first capsule certifed and by whom
mine was certified by Howad Anderson been involved and financing capsules for pros for some time also been helping many drivers get capsule trained
to include a boat builder who used my scuba equiptment at the first Inverness Fla race.
One more thing I no longer listen to idle chater I attend natl meetings
head committies,serve on committies where ya can get the real facts not just someones guesses

Pat

[Composite Specialties]

Since you ask

Pat,

Since you ask, here is a list of some of the things that I have accomplished with composites/capsule boats. I have been fortunate to have worked with some of the most respected composite people in the business. I have also been on the Pro hydro technical committee, the Pro safety committee and the Stock outboard hydro technical committee.:

• 1992: Designed and built a 250cc capsule hydro with a purchased safety cell from David Westbrook

• 1993: Designed and built a 500cc capsule hydro for Gary Augustine with a purchased cell from Charley Monts de Oca of Target marine

• 1993: Designed and built a 500cc capsule hydro for myself with a purchased cell from Bill Seebold

• 1993: Was there in Zanesville, Ohio for the first Premier Series all capsule hydro race. Raced 500cc capsule hydro with Pizza Hut as my local sponsor.

• 1994: Obtained APBA safety cell manufactures certification in the Pro and OPC divisions.

• 1994: Designed and built a Kilo safety cell boat for Jim McKean using a purchased safety cell from Bill Seebold. This boat holds quite a few Pro kilo records to date.

• 1994: Designed and built my first safety cell and utilized this cell in a 500cc capsule boat for Melvin Cooper.

• 1994: Designed a set of 500cc capsule hydro plans for Bob Trolian to build a mold for an all composite capsule boat, which he did build for Tim Warren.

• 1995: Designed and built a 500cc capsule hydro for Tim Borway. This safety cell was designed and built by me and was the first generation-1 one piece, from nose to transom, safety cell in Pro racing.

• 1995: Designed and built a second 500cc capsule hydro with my generation-1 one piece safety cell, for Randy Pringle/Dan Kirts. Dan won the first ever all capsule boat Pro nationals at Depue with this boat.

• 1996: Designed and built a 500cc capsule hydro with my generation-2 one piece safety cell for Sean McKean, the same boat he currently uses today for his Yamato 500cc.

• 2006: Designed and built all composite center section for Pro and Stock open cockpit hydros, currently utilized by David Mitchell 250-350cc, David Augustine 250cc, Mark Johnson 125cc, mark Stahl 250cc-350cc, Zach Malhoit 350cc, Joe Silvestri C-Stock, Brian Williams C-Stock.

• 2006: Obtained APBA safety cell manufactures certification in Pro and OPC divisions.

• 2007: Currently working with Robbie Galetta on the next generation of Top hydro to be designed.

[Kristi Ellison]

I answer all your questions and that still is not enough. This was not some conspiracy by the Commission to get rid of radios, I don't do that kind of math. I don't use them and I personally don't care either way. I am not convinced that the way we use them makes the race course any safer. We are actively working on the other safety issues as Pat has already addressed. Much to some people's dismay we all have daytime jobs kids and families and we don't have the time or the pay check to work on these things 24/7. When we are getting million dollar purses then maybe I will quit my day job and do this full time. Marc I am not understanding your severe attitude towards the Commission....maybe you should come to a meeting and join us sometime....it is not as cut and dry as everyone thinks and we try very hard to do the right thing for the drivers and our sport whether anyone believes that or not.
Nic no one is ignoring what happened to you and we have long discussions about neck restraints every year at the meeting and amongst ourselves. I understand the mechanics of neck injuries in trauma patients better than most. I talk to many surgeons whom I would consider experts and there are concerns about the differences in head restraints in vehicles and boats and the mechanism of injury. The problem is we don't have the funding to generate the type of definitive data to mandate the restraints. When you mnadate something it opens everyone up to litigation when the device fails to protect the driver.

Yes I do get defensive when you refer to me as "Mrs. Ellison" no one calls me that except my kids friends and telemarketers.

Take a valium and put this much energy into your day jobs

KRISTI

[David Weaver]

A couple of thought and observations

This was clearly an issue near and dear to the hearts of the PRO drivers based on the high vote count. I am pleased to see that most drivers cared enough to voice their preference at the ballot box. I am also pleased to see that the Commission allowed this to go to the vote of the drivers. That does not mean, however, that every commissioner voted to disallow the use of radios (do all the Commisioners even get a vote on this, as they are not registered drivers?).

I am not terribly passionate about the subject and its outcome was not going to cause me to ***** at the commissioners or to walk away from the sport. I believe that there are ways to implement the use of radios in a manner that addresses the perceived past abuses during competition. If I were in the "Allow Radio Use" camp, I would discuss the pro's, cons and conerns with my fellow drivers and bring a comprehensive proposal to the Detroit meeting. And, I would attend that meeting to explain the proposal (that would need to go again to the drivers for a vote).

I have to agree that the rule change language was confusing enough that I had to read it several times. I believe that almost everyone would agree that the language could have been more precise.

Having been a commissioner for one season, I would be reluctant to post on any chat board with regards to the discussions held in the meetings, mainly because my memory may not be as accurate as the meeting minutes. I would have been pleased to discuss the issues in person or over the phone, so long as the discussion remained rationale and not personal.

Having considered some of the safety matters discussed above while a commissioner, I was concerned about the lack of data that we had on many of these issues. My concern was that a well intended change could backfire due to an unforseen consequence of its implementation. When we asked about available studies, there often were none available. Nobody on the commission belittled the requested changes or the individuals that brought proposals to the board.

Given that the membership voted on this, I would give the PRO Commission a pass on some of the criticism. I do believe that this is a matter could be revisited on next year's ballot, if for no other reason to provide a clearer explanation of the intended rule change.

I hope everyone has a safe racing season.

[raceright]

Pat,

Since you ask, here is a list of some of the things that I have accomplished with composites/capsule boats. I have been fortunate to have worked with some of the most respected composite people in the business. I have also been on the Pro hydro technical committee, the Pro safety committee and the Stock outboard hydro technical committee.:

• 1992: Designed and built a 250cc capsule hydro with a purchased safety cell from David Westbrook

• 1993: Designed and built a 500cc capsule hydro for Gary Augustine with a purchased cell from Charley Monts de Oca of Target marine

• 1993: Designed and built a 500cc capsule hydro for myself with a purchased cell from Bill Seebold


• 1993: Was there in Zanesville, Ohio for the first Premier Series all capsule hydro race. Raced 500cc capsule hydro with Pizza Hut as my local sponsor.

• 1994: Obtained APBA safety cell manufactures certification in the Pro and OPC divisions.

• 1994: Designed and built a Kilo safety cell boat for Jim McKean using a purchased safety cell from Bill Seebold. This boat holds quite a few Pro kilo records to date.

• 1994: Designed and built my first safety cell and utilized this cell in a 500cc capsule boat for Melvin Cooper.

• 1994: Designed a set of 500cc capsule hydro plans for Bob Trolian to build a mold for an all composite capsule boat, which he did build for Tim Warren.

• 1995: Designed and built a 500cc capsule hydro for Tim Borway. This safety cell was designed and built by me and was the first generation-1 one piece, from nose to transom, safety cell in Pro racing.

• 1995: Designed and built a second 500cc capsule hydro with my generation-1 one piece safety cell, for Randy Pringle/Dan Kirts. Dan won the first ever all capsule boat Pro nationals at Depue with this boat.

• 1996: Designed and built a 500cc capsule hydro with my generation-2 one piece safety cell for Sean McKean, the same boat he currently uses today for his Yamato 500cc.

• 2006: Designed and built all composite center section for Pro and Stock open cockpit hydros, currently utilized by David Mitchell 250-350cc, David Augustine 250cc, Mark Johnson 125cc, mark Stahl 250cc-350cc, Zach Malhoit 350cc, Joe Silvestri C-Stock, Brian Williams C-Stock.

• 2006: Obtained APBA safety cell manufactures certification in Pro and OPC divisions.

• 2007: Currently working with Robbie Galetta on the next generation of Top hydro to be designed.

June 91 we started work on capsule boat with Jim Appell this was before
they were mandiated. We also built several boats ourself 6 I believe retros and full composite. John Gosman just won Inverness with one of our retro's.
Currently have 4 capsule boats built by us active in the U.S.Titleseries with our own composite capsules. So it seems we are both safety minded. (believe we did start a little before ya). Building boats is only the start of safety many other things also come into play. Oh another Item I need to clarify My number on voting include bore and stroke member as I believe
only these members would vote on radio usage, could be asuming a little here???

[Composite Specialties]

Kristi, I think anyone would get defensive and severe when they are accused of being juvenile. As for the Valium, I think you work in that field and you should have plenty to take. As for the energy, I have plenty and use it for my day job very well and will continue to try to get the facts out there for everyone when something like this radio rule comes about.

As I stated earlier, I don't really care if you like or dislike radios, I like them and a lot of other people like them for safety reasons. I am for safety first in everything that I make and feel strongly about and that includes the use of radios, the use of composite cockpit side in open cockpit boats, rounded pickle tips and safety cells. I definitely do not have to justify my severeness to you or anyone else when it comes to my feelings on these subjects.