rule proposal 21

[sam]

this is a respectful question.
Just how exactly does the SORC expect us to respond to a class falling below ANY minimum? Just what kind of magic should the DSR folks for example do?
So again I ask, What more is to be expected from the drivers in any lagging class? respectfully submitted, Steve Johnson

Steve there is no way anyone is going to give away new motors to keep a receeding class off the rocks. Manufacturers have already made and sold the motors, plenty of them; the problem is not lack of motors. The problem is lack of motors coming to races; they are out there ... in basements, garages, sheds and workshops. If you want to keep racing in one of the bubble classes you need to find your old buddies (and enemies) and get them coming back to races or GET THEM TO TURN LOOSE of the equipment so someone can race it as a second or third class or so someone new can run it.

That is what is needed to keep the bubble from bursting.

[Dr. Thunder]

In 1985...the last year of the 'A' Merc...there were about 125 ASH. 4 years later with the OMC, there were 165.

1985 ASR 'A' Merc, 118 boats. 1987 with the OMC...143.

...there should be viable options for the people the SO category is trying to attract.

From an earlier post ...

1987 ASR OMC 143 participants ... 86 participants in 1997
1989 ASH OMC 165 participants ... 97 participants in 1999

There were viable options for participants during those ten years ... so, why did we lose the participants and where did they go?

My top ten list of reasons as to the why:

10. I grew too big/got too old
9. My wife said "you raced last year and you want to race this year too?"
8. Lost my job and can't afford to race any more.
7. Not enough races in my Region any more.
6. My wife said "I thought you bought a new propeller last year".
5. Can't tuck.
4. I think their cheating!
3. I don't know how to cheat.
2. AXS ... what's that?
... and the number one reason ...
1. APBA took "stock" out of Stock Outboard Racing!

[sam]

... and the number one reason ...
1. APBA took "stock" out of Stock Outboard Racing!

There is no "APBA" ... it is "we"

[Dr. Thunder]

There is no "APBA" ... it is "we"

Sam, with all due respect "we" didn't send out the ballot at issue!

[Steve Johnson]

attract the 300,000,000

Thats My job. We are working on that.

I am still not sasafied.
The Low participation Numbers in some classes are common knowledge. No warning lights really needed.
Most of us in these classes are all ready giving out what we can to help our class. How should we do differently? . I contend that we are already doing our part. Our classes are weak because of other factors. I know of at least 4 44xs rigs in Wisc. I ask the guy to come play or sell every year. how much more coersion should we apply? The new motors that we were MIXED -blessed with in the 80's came at a cost. many more hung up the helmet rather than update. and no where near the numbers of new things produced as opposed to what was floating around out there.

[Hagerl 6M]

I wanted to re-post this because it shuffled back during the day

Sorry all you die hard readers for the re-post

THIS RULE IS THE TOP O' MARATHON KILLER!!!!!!

I like change. But I don't like getting squeezed into a class I don't like or will never like.

What will happen is that the majority of the classes at Top O' will be regional classes and won't count for squat besides hurt knees. That is NOT an ok thing. Then, after they are just regional classes they will slip into the the three year range and be deleted from SO. In that case Top O' might as well become a vintage category race. Paints a pretty bleak picture, eh? If you are a Top O' fan or racer, PLEASE vote "NO" on this.

As for short course racing this rule along with the so called "new hotrod" will probably force a lot of drivers to the C classes. I'm not about to get into a C with their heavy boats and side fins. People keep saying that the "new hotrod" will save the world for medium sized drivers but I am skeptical. I would love to be proved wrong but I am worried about the punch out of the turns and the HP to weight issue. Again, would love to be proved wrong. If my worries are right coupled with the new class rule (If it passes) then there would be a choice for a medium sized driver. Either go down to A or go up to C. Neither looks appealing to my personal preferences.

This is just MY opinion and I do not want to get anyone mad. If you were a part of getting this rule on the ballot or are a big proponent of the rule change, PLEASE do not take this as a personal jab. We can agree to disagree and still have have a beer after the race, no matter what class we are racing in the future.

[greybeard]

Marathon Points

Mike,
I may be missing something but there is nothing in this proposal that limits participation (defined as earning points) to short course events only. Participation is not really defined well. Note that the HOC, Waldman and Menzies awards count both CC and Marathon points...

I'm not sure if this would materially change the numbers, but...

John

Ok let me refresh everyones memory. Here is what was approved in LA. It doesn't eliminate any class from being run as we run today. If you fall below the minumum 35 number you are now a local class. If John Runne would post the way the classes would look going forward it might help everyone see were there class might look like in the future. You can see this rule doesn't even effect us this year. After next year is when we start looking at boat counts. It gives us 2 years to get any class with low numbers up. The D class has to start buying engines and come racing if it is to stay a National Class. It can run at the Marathon Nationals for ever, I suggested to the race committee for the marathon to invite MBRA and AOF. This might bring some of those drivers over to increase our numbers and help some of the lower number classes. Maybee all race committes should look at inviting the 2 other racing divisions to come and run with us. The below was from the minutes in LA pertaining to this new rule we need to pass. We also passed a 5 year steering committe to moniter and watch and change if needed as we go along. Get them boats ready and lets go racing!!!!! Mike

p. Discussion of SO Long Term Plan:

John Runne and his steering committee to give there ideas as well as the SORC and VP

Motion made to except John Runne’s Minimum participation Proposal Affective Nov 1 2007.
Motion – Passes

A. In Order for a racing class to be recognized with National standing and be eligible for all awards for a racing season, there must be at least 35 participants in the preceding racing year.
B, Participants will be defined as any driver who garnered points in a SO class during the racing year.
C. Should a class not have 35 participants in a racing year, the class will be deemed a local/regional class for the next racing year. The class will not be eligible for National High Points, National Championships, Winter Nationals Championships, Divisional Championships, Waldman & Menzies Awards. Further, no activity in the class will count toward the Hall of Champion points.
D. If the class reaches a minimum of 35 participants in the year it is designated as a local/regional class, it will be reinstated as a National class for the next year. If a SO class falls below 35 participants for 2 consecutive years, that class will remain as a Local/Divisional class and be placed on probation. To be removed from Probation and return to National standing for the for the next racing season, a class must meet the minimum of 35 participants during the Probationary year.

Motion made to have a Steering Committee for the next 5 years. Motion - Passes

[Merc1]

I agree with Steve

I see pictures on another boat racing site, to remain nameless. That show certain people that own 4 or more of the same motor! ( That are still a " viable class") What the hell for!!!! One ok, but 4???? Those engines and parts are being hoarded to sit in someones shed or basement when they could be at the races! Steve loans out equipment at every race he goes to! I know, I run some of it. In specific to the D-Stock class, We want to go faster than the average guy so that limits the number of participants combined with the fact that D is not a "beginner" class. I don't know of anybody who picks D Hydro as the class they want to start their career in. Most guys or gals work up to it. So I say to the C drivers, Why don't you step up and run the bigger class? Don't use your weight as an excuse because i've been running D for the last 5 years and I weigh 165 to 170. And no I don't need 50lbs of lead in the boat. It is 16 to be exact.

[csh2z]

Steve et al, I really don't know what to tell you about promoting the sport or any single class. The D class and 45SST have a couple of things that seem to be more difficult to overcome than the other classes. First, currently their popularity is regional. Second, they're expensive. For less effort and money you could build a B,C or older D mod and be competitive with a more reliable motor ( That may or may not be true, but it is the perception). Third, they're faster than most people want to go, at least in S.O. Currently the regions that are running DSH regularly are Reg. 2,6,7 and 10. DSR in Reg. 6,7 and 10. Those are the only regions that can grow these classes, now. Only in those regions do you have a viable growing D class. Those regions should be where the effort is concentrated. If you guys can't revive these classes,nobody can. It is in those regions that a DSR or DSH is a good investment. The remainder of the country will join in once you folks reestablish these classes. It is going to take a coordinated effort for all the D drivers to communicate and figure out how to make this thing work. You've got three + years to make it happen. The SORC will support this effort as much as possible but you can't hang it on the commission. "Promote YOU'RE class" nobody else can do it for you. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help. John 2-Z

[Steve Johnson]

Final thoughts

what a civilized discourse.
I'm sure we all agree that S O is in strange new land sans factory support. The trick will be to administer enough cure to help but not to kill off the patient. I think the most important number to be really concerned with is Bottom line number of Members, Participents,helpers. Class counts are great but only one indicater of health.
I do know this. It takes two new racers to replace and show growth for every driver lost, for whatever reason. I also know that KGmod Cmod merc 2 Person FER never really bounced back as promised when they were demoted to regional status. To me class shuffles are just that, and not very usefull.

To Sam ,
I don't think asking a factory( dealer) to donate and engine or two to help sell
themselves is an unrealistic nor unreasonable expectation. It has been done in the past and is still being done. Montoya, has donated at least two 302's
Dave Little , Moulder , Merc, Omc. and I'm sure others,have done the same. I did not specifically demand that motors be donated, but that type of stuff is what creates demand and makes classes grow. It's just good business. I would think that It is more realistic to ask that those that should stand to make some money do this, rather than Joe racer.
And to those upon whose toes I stomped on... Sorry I had to go there, I felt it was vital to the discussion and wasen't intended to be hurtful.
Also I'm just running with this... I don't personally believe any one has mal intent here.
Have a wonderful night Gent's and thanks for the stimulating discussion

[ryan_4z]

Sorry all you die hard readers for the re-post

THIS RULE IS THE TOP O' MARATHON KILLER!!!!!!

I like change. But I don't like getting squeezed into a class I don't like or will never like.

What will happen is that the majority of the classes at Top O' will be regional classes and won't count for squat besides hurt knees. That is NOT an ok thing. Then, after they are just regional classes they will slip into the the three year range and be deleted from SO. In that case Top O' might as well become a vintage category race. Paints a pretty bleak picture, eh? If you are a Top O' fan or racer, PLEASE vote "NO" on this.

Jim, what exactly do you think these classes are now? The Marathon Nationals is a novelty race. It doesn't really mean anything when it comes to national awards. Don't get me wrong, I think that this race is cool as hell. I also understand that it gets HOC points(not sure why), but that rarely comes into effect anyway. Just wait until we have a Hydro Marathon Nationals, then things will really get interesting! If you really think that this rule will affect Top O', you are kidding yourself. The guys that run that race run it for one reason. It is a legendary race, and just to finish it is an accomplishment. Does it really need to be any more than that?

As for short course racing this rule along with the so called "new hotrod" will probably force a lot of drivers to the C classes. I'm not about to get into a C with their heavy boats and side fins. People keep saying that the "new hotrod" will save the world for medium sized drivers but I am skeptical. I would love to be proved wrong but I am worried about the punch out of the turns and the HP to weight issue. Again, would love to be proved wrong. If my worries are right coupled with the new class rule (If it passes) then there would be a choice for a medium sized driver. Either go down to A or go up to C. Neither looks appealing to my personal preferences..

Maybe you should wait until you see it run before passing such judgement. I thought the new Sidewinder 15 ran quite well at Millville, with my slightly more than B weight cousin in the boat. He can tell you what he thinks about it. Considering it is just a proationary motor in the prototype stages, what we have seen so far has been very promising. The guys working on this project are pretty bright, they now how to get what they want out of this motor. In a couple of years, instead of having A and C as choices, you will have A, 15, B, and C. Now everybody has probably 2 classes that they comfortably fit into. With the ability to run interchangable boats between an A and a 15, or a 15 and a B, along with the numerous number of interchangable motor parts, running multiple classes will be very simple and economical.

[ryan_4z]

Ryan remains a voice of reason in this debate and is much more likely to win the nationals in CSH than the Nobel Prize.

I don't know Phil! I figure I would be in the running for the Nobel Peace Prize if I can just get everyone on Hydroracer to get along! I think I may need more training before taking on that feat though.

[Dave M]

Interesting Point

In a couple of years, instead of having A and C as choices, you will have A, 15, B, and C. Now everybody has probably 2 classes that they comfortably fit into. With the ability to run interchangable boats between an A and a 15, or a 15 and a B, along with the numerous number of interchangable motor parts, running multiple classes will be very simple and economical.

I thought SO already had that. One boat for A Stock can compete with three different classes already. J, ASH, AXSH, and a fourth if they run FAH.

C Boat - Can run OSY400, Restrict it run 20SSH.

20 Boat - Runs in 25SH.

Same is true for Runabouts.
I can't remember all the others if there are more, hard enough to sort it all out the way it is.

[CSR4C]

Novelty Race?

Ryan,
So you think that Top O' Michigan is a novlety race. Then I challenge you to run it, bet you don't have the guts. Last year 26 CSRs (bigger field than the closed course nationals) strating at one time. And you don't think the winner after 87 miles of racing doesn't deserve (1) Hall of Champion point. Come up and try to knock 11 time winner Tim Ross of his throne. Your uncle Rich has been nipping at his heels the last 2 years.
Send me your address, I will send you a video, so you can see what's it all about.
Darrell

[ryan_4z]

Darrell,

I think you misunderstood me. I meant absolutely nothing negative about the Marathons. I've wanted to run that race since the first time I rolled up a runabout. Didn't I say in my post that the race is legendary? Is a race having legendary status not good enough. Look, novelty may have been the wrong word, but my point remains the same. We run closed course racing. Marathons are a special event. So no, I do not believe that it deserves a HOC point. And I fully intend on making it to the Marathon Nationals someday, but the Stock Nationals take priority.