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Where's The Beef. Ed?

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  • Where's The Beef. Ed?

    The 302 has been around for almost 15 years and the commission has yet to make a single specific rule or spec change to help the 302. They haven't done Jack---- to give it even the tiniest advantage and subtley make it the engine of choice. The SORC guys profess to have suddenly found religion and now see the light but still have done nothing to allow specific changes to benefit the 302. They change the same rule for both motors and expect it to make a difference? Are deathbed converions sincere?

    I don't profess to know everything, but my experience and a tiny amount of common sense tells me that lowering both motors the same amount won't change anything relative to each other. It obviously has upset a number of drivers of both 302 and 102 stuff. However I am open minded and reasonable. I am willing to believe that the SORC and their puppet parity committee knew precisely what they were doing and made an informed, thoughtful and as J Runne fantasizes, a responsible decision. I will believe it, that is, when they release the test data and relative information they used to arrive at this decision. I may be from Wisconsin but have a "Show Me" philosophy.

    Tell me the type of boat used for test purposes, driver, propshaft heights tested, kick-in-kick-out settings,number of props tested for each, weight of the rig with both motors. Since the 102 takes a taller transom setting, this moves the motor back farther- was this fact taken into consideration? Was there any attempt to move the 302 back farther so the prop location and weight distribution was equal for both? Release the test data with top speeds, rpms, 45-60 (or equivalent) acceleration times and lap times on the same course for each motor and some sort of evaluation as to the quality of each motor-because we all know some are better than others. If this data shows the results they want us to believe, great. I'm sure they have all the info on a nice Excell spread sheet they can easily e-mail to us or post here.

    Give us the facts for how much lowering each motor cost in top speed, helped or hurt acceleration times and how it changed the lap times. Show us that the change does exactly what the king says it will do. I kept hearing how the SORC needed facts and testing info for the 25SS/CSR and Merc/Tohatsu before they could make any changes. Remember Mike Ross almost begging for test results? Since they insisted on having proper data before making any changes to those classes, they must have good data as a basis to formulate their changes for CSH. Right? Maybe?? OK, maybe not really good data but how about some sketchy data??? Well, how about a fact???? No facts either?????? Well how about unfounded opinion? I think we gettin hotta now!

    In lieu of any data, I have to assume the wonderboys made their decision solely on emotion and SWAG. You know, scientific wild a-s guess. So come on, Ed, release the test data and show me/us that we're all wet. I'm sure the data will have to be included in the meeting minutes and we'll get to see it eventually, but why not release it now and show us that this decision was based on facts and reason and will produce exactly the results they boast about now.

    As I have stated before, if they really wanted to make the 302 relatively faster so it would be the motor of choice, they could have done a number of things that I have talked about for years. Here's a list of my TOP TEN ideas to change the balance of power in CSH.

    1. Allow some minor mods to the 302 like blueprinting heads to min CCs or squaring the exhaust port a bit.
    2. Allow drying up the tower housing.
    3. Add weight to a 102.
    4. Remove weight from the 302.
    5. My old favorite was to add 5 lbs every year to the 102 until a 302 wins the Nationals two years in a row but they've missed too many years for this to give quick results now.
    6. Keep the 102 at 1/2 inch and let the 302s go back to level.
    7. Keep the 302 at 1/2 inch and lower the 102 to 3/4 inch. Hell, go to 1 3/8inch so you can use the A inspection tool and make it easy on the inspector.
    8. Have Tad Olson revise the exhaust megaphone casting to make a new, mandatory megaphone for the 102 that is longer and will hurt the last bit of top speed.
    9. Eliminate the 102 and require everyone to run a 302. Hey, that's what the 102 guys did to the Mercurys after they couldn't beat Matt and me, how about a dose of the same poison for them?
    10. Ok, if you've made it this far here's the best one but too simple and logical for most SORC commissioners to grasp. Make the 102 run two head gaskets. Simple, cheap, easy to inspect, doesn't obsolete everyone's set-ups, props or boats. I'm not looking for a giant change and this would probably be enough. It will cut a bit of acceleration and not allow the 102 to pull the very stiff props that give it that last bit of top speed on a national sized course. It's that last 1/2-1 mph of top end speed that is the killing difference. No, I haven't tested it but then I'm not one of the gifted members of the parity committee. I have talked to some 15 guys who have had experienced an increase of 1 CC. This would increase the 102 CCs by approx 1.8 CC. (2.625 bore x 0.020 gasket thickness)

    The top secret technique underlying all my possibilities is that each idea addresses only one motor and leaves the other unchanged. I underatand that changing only one thing is difficult for a powerful administration when they could change two just as easily.

    All of my ideas WILL change the relative performances of the motors. I don't believe the SORC's newest blunder will do so.

    Where's the data, Ed? Don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining when we all can see you pissing.

  • #2
    Where's the beef?

    Sam,

    Couldn't agree more (except number 9!) Maybe they will answer your post, so far no such luck with mine.

    Dave Riser

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    • #3
      and I finally cooled off................oh well here it goes

      In a previous post I made the statement that I felt the SORC made a "blind decision" and was called out for it. Well this is what I was refering to. Where's the data supporting the decision? It seems this part of the process was ignored.

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow

        Hydroplay:

        All I can say is "applause, applause, applause". Some very, very, good and rational suggestions. So good in fact the SORC almost HAS to act now or the obvious answer is no, they didn't do anything even remotely like you have suggested, and if that is the case, then where is the reasoning for the change. You may not be from "the show me state" but you certainly deserve a long term visa, or at the very least, a green card.

        Comment


        • #5
          Sam Hemps GREEN card

          Originally posted by bill van steenwyk View Post
          Hydroplay:

          All I can say is "applause, applause, applause". Some very, very, good and rational suggestions. So good in fact the SORC almost HAS to act now or the obvious answer is no, they didn't do anything even remotely like you have suggested, and if that is the case, then where is the reasoning for the change. You may not be from "the show me state" but you certainly deserve a long term visa, or at the very least, a green card.
          and Green boats and motors and rope and .....

          Comment


          • #6
            Oh come on hydroplay! Don't sugar coat it. Tell us how you really feel.

            BTW, I love idea number 9.


            Good post Sam.
            ...

            OMC FE/SE powerhead parts for sale. Kurcz ported block, Mod 50 pistons and cylinder head, exhaust, etc.



            Comment


            • #7
              Oh Man...........

              Ed
              Please admit you were wrong and recind this rule.....if you don't Sam will be on the computer 24/7 and none of us will have new boats to race this summer!!!!

              And i do remember the year the 30H Merc was simply 'eliminated' to make way for the 102 in 1990. It was a good decision since much data was gathered and the 102 was the motor of preference to the tune of about 10 to 1 over the Merc's in numbers. In the case of the 302 that just doesn't seem to be the case.

              They must have had some good 'brew' in the hospitality rooms where most of these type decisions are 'brewed' up. Been there done that.

              Good night Troy.



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              • #8
                Sam - you sure managed to quiet things down. The silence from the SORC members is deafening.

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                • #9
                  Charlie,

                  I just checked my e-mail but the data wasn't there yet. I'm sure Ed and the clowns will get it out soon.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Matt Dagostino View Post
                    Ed
                    Please admit you were wrong and recind this rule.....if you don't Sam will be on the computer 24/7 and none of us will have new boats to race this summer!!!!

                    And i do remember the year the 30H Merc was simply 'eliminated' to make way for the 102 in 1990. It was a good decision since much data was gathered and the 102 was the motor of preference to the tune of about 10 to 1 over the Merc's in numbers. In the case of the 302 that just doesn't seem to be the case.

                    They must have had some good 'brew' in the hospitality rooms where most of these type decisions are 'brewed' up. Been there done that.

                    Good night Troy.
                    Matt, I thought the Mec was removed in about 1988, since that was the first year of 25SSH for me.

                    2-3 years with a 30H and my motor becomes obsolete. I sure didn't miss messing with points, timing, twisting on 2 carbs....

                    For a newbie it seemed harsh. There was no transition, not much warning, just this is what it's going to be, the 30H is only legal in Mod now.

                    That's why I waited until the 302 came out to purchase a Yamato, after my tenure with 25SSH, because it has electronic ignition, actually brought it up to 21st century technology.

                    #9 makes the most sense, especially if the Sidewinder makes it on the water this year. Make the 102 legal in Mod only. Problem solved, and both motors have a place to run.

                    With port timing different it will be almost impossible to make them equal.

                    PS-The new height rule will help me in my new hull this year, but I'm being selfish with my position.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hydroplay View Post
                      Charlie,

                      I just checked my e-mail but the data wasn't there yet. I'm sure Ed and the clowns will get it out soon.
                      Please inlighten me Sam. Did you make these suggestions BEFORE the nat. meeting?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Great post Sam!!
                        Come on SORC do you have any answers?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          30h...............

                          Actually the 30H was outlawed in 1990. I was CSH National Champion in 1987,1988 and 1989 with the Merc. It did make sense to ban the Merc and make room for the 102 Yamato since the time was right for the 102 Yamato and it made no sense for me or Sam to show up at the 'big races' with 3 mph on the field with the Merc.

                          The same was also true when the OMC A was made the 'exclusive' motor in 'A' class in the mid-80's. Extensive testing was done and data was gathered and it was a no brainer. In the case of the 302 i am not so sure.

                          However, i have always been a believer in 'one class one motor'. It keeps things simple.

                          Funny, i kinda miss the old adjustable carbs of the 30h. There was nothing like watching ole Harold Barnes walking up the pits 'taching' one motor after another while the smell of his fresh cigar filled the air. LOL. Guess you had to be there!

                          Later



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Cmon Sam you are the one being a clown....

                            Cmon Sam, get real and quit being an arse.....

                            I agree with everything you stated…. You have forgotten more about outboard racing than I will ever know! However, you take things way to far...

                            You make is sound like the SORC is a professional paid committee of experts that operates 24/7 like Nascar or something. Furthermore, you seem to always feel the need to show the rest of us how smart you are and how stupid the rest of are. I can only assume you need this validation to offset other areas of you life where you feel inadequate or measure up a little short…

                            The SORC is 12-20 volunteer guys who give up a week of vacation to go and try and make there HOBBY better. So cut them some slack....what do you expect.... What you stated above would have taken weeks. Do you really think that is practical for all classes? Who has that kind of time, get real….. By the way, who is crazier, the SORC for making decisions like this or YOU for expecting them to do any different? The definition of insanity is someone who commits the same act over and over and expects a different outcome.

                            I am judging by your earlier post calling me out for the 1/2" restriction that you think I am one of the idiots as well....and you are right as usual! However, I am one of the idiot SORC guys who sacrificed my time to try and improve our HOBBY, only to be criticized and ridiculed for the effort. If I was Stock V.P. you are the first guy I would consult and try to convince to be a commissioner! Your knowledge would be invaluable and could really improve our sport! Why can’t you use your super powers for good and not evil? Imagine the impact and legacy you could have if you were just a bit more constructive and less inflammatory. You should have been on the Yamato Tech. committee and the Parity committee. Hearn asked for people who wanted to be on them months before the meeting! You did not even have to go to L.A. you could have been on the committee and submitted the ideas you posted!! Your idea about the 2 head gaskets seems great! But you didn’t go, you didn’t get on a committee, you didn’t pick up phone prior to the meeting…..and now you are pissed. I think the rule is poor also, but I did not do any of these things either so I am keeping my mouth shut. You snooze you lose…so for you, Bill, Riser, Dagostino and all the others who criticize….either get involved and give up you time so we can benefit from you knowledge OR drop you motor another ¼ inch test and try and rub everyone else’s knows in your supreme knowledge of outboard racing.

                            I think I can guess what you will do though…..after all I may be an idiot, but I am not insane.

                            CSH12M



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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by hydroplay View Post
                              **.
                              Sam: the beef is in several filings I have to finish this week for trials I have coming up in the next month. So only a brief response now.

                              1) Nice that you waited until after the meeting to make any alternative suggestions even though you very well knew this would be on the agenda. Even Dell Snyder piped up on the "all aluminum fin" proposal. You, however, said nothing.

                              2) As I said in the meeting, the cry for "data" is always the cry to stop whatever is being proposed. No matter what the data is, it is never good enough. It has been that way since I went to my first annual meeting in Chicago in 1988. Besides, you can put all the data you want in front of me, when I see Miskerik and Billy Allen looking for 102's, I do not need data to know what is going on. I believe that's called intuition.

                              3) There may very well exist other methods to reach 102/302 parity. I believe this one will work. The SORC discussed leaving the 302 at 1/2" and putting the 102 at 3/4. If this doesn't work, as I said earlier, I believe that may be considered. I do not believe anything that you have proposed will remove the encentive to machine the hell out of the lower unit or tower on both engines. Removing that encentive is very important to me in order to be consistent with the Stock Outboard philosophy. I know that you do not hold that philosophy.

                              4) This is the "Pandora's Box" that was mentioned when the rule was passed allowing the bulge to be taken off of the gearbox. The members wanted that bulge off. All of this mess is a direct result of that decision.

                              More later. A federal judge demands attention! Ed.
                              14-H

                              "That is NOT why people hate me." - 14-H.

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