How would YOU build your CSH!

[ryan_4z]

Dan,

I an no boat expert, however the one thing I've see repeatedly with laydown hydros in "small", yet underpowered classes is that they just don't work as well as a kneeldown.

Yes, the center gravity is lower, but int he case of a Yamato you still have a lot of heavy engine up high. Secondly, the amount of drag your body creates in the air is a lot less then the water (wetted surface) on the bottom of the boat.

Therefore, the fastest boat is one that is 'out of the water'. When you are for the most part stationary (ie. laydown) you can't lean out in the turn which keeps the fin planted and the right sponson up (hopefully). You also, cant "jump" in the back of the boat coming out of the turn, which won't allow you to accelerate as fast.

I've seen a few laydown boats run here in the states with everything from a 20ssh, CSH and DSH with very little success. That lack of success was primarly due to the speed around the type of course we are racing in the U.S.

Look at a few of the pictures with the boats going around the turn and coming out of the turns....they are dragging a lot of sponson and a lot of boat is IN the water.

Just my view point.

Mark

Mark is absolutely right on this. As far as laying down, I think you have to be running at least a CMH to start seeing a postitive effect. You have to be able to get back in a CSH. It is tough to make big innovative changes in boat design when you have dam near a dozen guys around the country who have been building boats for 30 years or more.

[jsilvestri]

Since I built my own laydown and raced it for a season and a half, I will chime in here. I really liked the laydown ride, nothing like it. It was easy on the knees and the feeling of flying over the water on your belly is really cool. The biggest problem with my laydown is that I could not stop it from broaching in the corners. The only thing I could do was back off the throttle and that will result in getting passed. Now, my design was probably not the best and there are probably better laydown designs that turn better than mine. But, the biggest problem I found with the laydown was that I was racing against almost all kneeldowns and in a kneeldown you can see a lot better than in a laydown. Also in kneeldown boats, guys are jocking around for different positions and lanes all over the course where as in a laydown its not as easy to do so because of visability. I stood up my laydown at the beginning of last summer because I did not see another boat coming over to overtake my lane. Its a very spooky feeling standing up a laydown. I thought I was going over and heading to the hospital! This is when I decided I would buy a new MJR Composites CSH and it was the best thing I could have done. I'm not saying a laydown will not work, I may even build another one some day.

[csh2z]

Dan, Buy one of those European boats, bring it here and try it! John 2-Z

[DougMc]

Diane Murray runs well with a Giles laydown OSY.

[Composite Specialties]

Diane's Boat

Diane's boat is a Pugh

[HRTV]

Marc

Since John and Ryan are going to beat my head against the wall until I agree with them whats your take on this issue. Why are there such huge differences in the type of hulls that are run here in the states and over in Europe.

The lakes in Europe look just like Millville, NJ or any other lake here in the states. They also run the same motor run in CSH or OSY 400 since the kneel down boat is a superior design according to John & Ryan why would 99% of the drivers in Europe and Asia go with the laydown design.

[Composite Specialties]

Laydowns

It can work for sure but the boats are quite different in design on the bottom.

The euro boats are made for lemans starts, one to two pin turns and rough water, which we have here as well. The boats are designed a lot like all of the laydowns that the 0-125, 0-250, etc.. boats are designed. They all, across the board, have a huge amount of lift built in the front of the boat with multiple steps in the sponson bottoms to create a wedge type effect which creates lift and compression on the front of the boat but is balanced by the weight of the driver laying down much more towards the nose than our laydowns are.

The entire euro laydown concept is based on balance of the boat for laying down. This concept could easily be built and raced here but you have to know what you are doing with balance and lift to make it work. The euro drivers are also smaller in size for the most part for these OSY's, which helps with the balance of the boat. Our design laydowns will work for euro races, Billy Allens 0-125 is a good example of that, it is just a different mindset that they use for design and balance.

I am currently working with a friend that races OSY in europe that has a new composite OSY laydown boat. We talk via email about the design and he tries things and gives feedback. We are going to design one together via email, and he is going to build it for the 2007 euro circuit, so we shall see what happens. If that is successful, then I will offer that here in a plans package as well.

[HRTV]

It can work for sure but the boats are quite different in design on the bottom.

The euro boats are made for lemans starts, one to two pin turns and rough water, which we have here as well. The boats are designed a lot like all of the laydowns that the 0-125, 0-250, etc.. boats are designed. They all, across the board, have a huge amount of lift built in the front of the boat with multiple steps in the sponson bottoms to create a wedge type effect which creates lift and compression on the front of the boat but is balanced by the weight of the driver laying down much more towards the nose than our laydowns are.

The entire euro laydown concept is based on balance of the boat for laying down. This concept could easily be built and raced here but you have to know what you are doing with balance and lift to make it work. The euro drivers are also smaller in size for the most part for these OSY's, which helps with the balance of the boat. Our design laydowns will work for euro races, Billy Allens 0-125 is a good example of that, it is just a different mindset that they use for design and balance.

I am currently working with a friend that races OSY in europe that has a new composite OSY laydown boat. We talk via email about the design and he tries things and gives feedback. We are going to design one together via email, and he is going to build it for the 2007 euro circuit, so we shall see what happens. If that is successful, then I will offer that here in a plans package as well.

Thanks Marc now I have my answer please keep me updated I love the design and would like see it work here in the states. I would also volunteer to be a test pilot.

[csh2z]

Dan, Neither Ryan or I said that the kneeldown boats are superior, but for the reasons Marc has just stated we don't think one of those particular boats would be competitive with our type of racing. John 2-Z

[HRTV]

John and everyone else who replied to this thread, I was looking for a detailed comprehensive answer to my question and I have received that from Marc Johnson.

Thanks

[mercguy]

John and everyone else who replied to this thread, I was looking for a detailed comprehensive answer to my question and I have received that from Marc Johnson.

Thanks

didn't take long to acheive your "life's mission" Dan! Don't we wish it was that simple!

[racer4s]

laydown

Dan,
I've had the pleasure of running for the last two years an early 90's CSH laydown design built by MJR. Joe Silvestri ran this boat once before he built his laydown. It's the most stable boat I've ever been in. I hold no false illusion that it is anywhere fast enough to run with the big boys on a nationals size course. There are several factors to this, not the least of which is the driver, motor, prop, and setup. I was however able to snooker a win in CSH at a local race in Brighton, MI when all of the above factors happened to line up just right on the right course at the right time.

Since having a new hip eliminated, at least for the present, the possibility of running a kneeldown, I was sure glad that I had the laydown so I could continue participating in a sport I enjoy. I would love to have a new boat, but I don't at this point believe that I can run a kneeldown safely, so I'll keep having fun with my old laydown.

I'll look forward to seeing some reports from MJR on his collaboration on the OSY400 project. (Maybe he can give me some suggestions on improving his old boat ) I do think that a laydown will work at least in OSY400. Didn't Lucas from Great Britain come to pro nationals with his european style osy boat not that long ago and end up 2nd overall?

It'll be interesting to see what these engineers come up with and how well it works.

Brent Simmons
20-P

[f8andbethere]

Dan,

snip
Therefore, the fastest boat is one that is 'out of the water'. When you are for the most part stationary (ie. laydown) you can't lean out in the turn which keeps the fin planted and the right sponson up (hopefully). You also, cant "jump" in the back of the boat coming out of the turn, which won't allow you to accelerate as fast.

snip
Mark

This is a simple engineering problem to solve. Tim Butts actually did solve it 15 years ago and build some really cool boats. His resolition was simply to put runabout deck throttle on the deck of the boat. He also put a cutout in theinside of the coming to allow the driver to slide out onto the deck. The deck throttle gives the drive enough leverage to slide out onto the deck in the turns of necessary.
Tim also did some really trick stuff with the sponsons that helped keep the boat up in the turns.
But if you really want to engineer a boat that will kick ass -- go with a encapsulated boat. Again there are some issues that you will have to engineer to overcome, but in the end you will have a boat that is safer and probably faster around the race course since the drive isn't hanging on for dear life in the turns.

[Andrew 4CE]

Anyone have pictures of the capsuled Flyer (i think) ASH made back 10 years ago or so?

I guess these guys need to decide if they want to push the envelope a little or a lot by experimenting, or build something they know is competitive and are going to have fun racing with. For people with no experiance this could be enough challenge.

And did we scare these guys off? haha. Post number 1 and number 3... is that all? maybe it's exam time?

[HRTV]

Great post, Marc Johnson sums it up best!

"This concept could easily be built and raced here but you have to know what you are doing with balance and lift to make it work."

Marc Johnson