S.O. National Meeting Agenda

[csh15n]

302 Pumping

Joe, I agree the a 3/4" height would make for a more level playing field. I beleive that the majority of the cooling issues are with 302's running on hydros that have the 1/2" height restriction. The runabouts have a 3/4" height requirement and do not seem the have the cooling issues we have with hydros

Erik Petersen (15-N)

[kws]

lol we should build you an esspresso machine to go at the end of your hose then you could at least have a good shot of espresso at the end of the race lol (just kidding)

I've gone ahead and drilled/tapped the boss and added a 1/8" pipe thread fitting with 1/4" nipple and use this simple set-up while testing props(including some of yours). Then I plug the fitting, zip tie the line to tie-back rope so it points at the prop to attemp to git more water to pick-up, and make short runs, each time lowering the motor till it pumps water for at least 2 1/2 laps---all the while watching the speed drop on each run and the steam burns the varnish (or me) next to my throttle where I've run the water dump line to keep an eye on my "tee-pot". .... Zip tie a length of water tube up the steering cable to the throttle so you can moniter the water while running....If you let it dump into a pack of hot-dogs you can also COOK your lunch!

[HRTV]

Joe, I agree the a 3/4" height would make for a more level playing field. I beleive that the majority of the cooling issues are with 302's running on hydros that have the 1/2" height restriction. The runabouts have a 3/4" height requirement and do not seem the have the cooling issues we have with hydros

Erik Petersen (15-N)

Can you guys take the 302 pumping issue out of this thread and please start a new thread on 302 pumping issues.

Thanks

[Ron Hill]

Well, I'm A Man of Few Words...

Except when I'm talking...


In keeping with the THEME of this forum:

I wish to request a rule change about starts.

1. For MARATHON racing, shore starts for heat racing is allowed, but I want the rule changed to allow points for shore starts, if you draw for starting positions for the first ten lap heat, and then reverse the order for the second ten lap heat.

Winner would be the driver with the most points..dah!!!! (Saturday's race)..But,

2. SECOND RULE, STARTS for Sunday's 25 lap final, would be based on Saturday's finish.

3. Points would be scored as Marathons.


So, what I'm requesting, is a rule change that would allow APBA Points for Saturday and Sunday....(Marathons, not screwing with circle races)....

Right now, we run 45 SS this way, but we get no points for Saturday as it is counted as a part of Sunday's race...

I'd like to start running some "Series Type" races for kneelers, where we could get more racers racing, and they would/could get points, as everyone likes points....



Mark Wheeler: Thanks for telling me ME motors are AVAILABLE....But, knowing what I know, who do I send it to after I buy it???? Hemp? Runne? D'Agostino??? I'll bet $500 this new motor won't beat anyone at the top....I want to buy a blue printed motor, broken in, GUARANTEED TO BE A RUNNER.....Charge me more....I don't know where to send it...I don't know how to break it in....but I have CASH! (Not really me, but there are people with kids that have CASH...I spent $1,000 on my five year old's bike when $1,000 WAS A LOT OF CASH.... for a BMX biKe, but when we went racing therE was 200 other 5 year olds with $1,000, 5 POUND BIKES, TOO.)....LACK OF MONEY ISN'T WHY BOAT RACING ISN'T GROWING....

Steve French: Thanks for (ALL) the tips....anytime you want to send me a prop or two...I'll make you some copies and SOME TO TRY...for FREE..if you come up with something, we'll talk price...you've been helpful to me and others...don't know you, but respect your efforts for the sport and yourself....(I might add, DON'T ever send me or anyone else your best prop....also, we are going to test a bunch this winter....we have a lake 15 minutes from us and my daughter has a weekend house in Needles, four doors from Jimbo, and Jimbo has a ramp across the street from his house)...SO, ANY 302 PROPS YOU SEND ME, WE MIGHT TEST THEM TOO!!! UNLESS YOU REALLY DIDN'T WANT US TO...

Joe S. (That's teacher talk...S. for Silvertri)...What you are saying about the water line outlet, is to keep the line big, higher than the block, so it can't run the block dry...easily... Broc will be running a Marathon this weekend...Where can I set the height and know it will get water??? (Darrell will help, but would like to have an idea)....

Why not cut the snout off, like an OLD Mercury "H" housing, screw a plate across the cut off back that has a scoop....Maybe, I'll do this on my 302 and run it as a RIVER RACER.

Bill III....Respectfully disagree with your post...Kneel Downs have many internal changes needed before we start trying to attract people off the streets out of malls....and many of these internal problems are stuff I'm posting and others are posting...When I was Region 12 CHAIRMAN, 1976-78, I GOT 20 PEOPLE RACING 20 SS HYDROS AND RUNABOUTS. NOT one of those 20 are still around racing today...except me....AND I could probably tell you why everyone of them quit.....


Ernie Dawe and I had a LONG TALK last Sunday....We are both retired teachers, both "EX" kneel Downers, both have sons racing 45 SS/SST 45....Chad has never been in the Hall of Champions, Steven Dawe has been in the Hall of Champions, maybe, more than any other driver.....Why are these two "BOYS"....in their late 20's running this class???

1. SAFETY...................................Steven Dawe is no dummy, one sister is a doctor, one is a teacher...(Which one has time to race???)...But Steven KNEW that racing C Stock Hydro, was sooner or later going to hurt him.....out west, we usually run big courses, with few boats....but Nationals are different...

2. RACES: Chad raced C Runabout, 6 years ago this October at Bakerfield....After sitting around for two days, with no test time, then running four heats in a row, just as the sun set...Then, being told he needed a new life jacket ($500) , and a legal cut suit ($??).....Chad QUIT Stock Outboarding and said he'd never race it again....

3. SERIES: Two years ago, Chad bought a 45...There is a Series where you race two, ten lap qualifers, Saturday, with GUARANTEED TEST TIME, and a 25 lap Main, with GUARANTEED TEST TIME.....Also, when time permits, he can race 45 SS, two five lap heats.... So, count...20 laps Saturday Series, ten Laps 45 SS, 25 laps Sunday Series, 10 laps 45 SS...65 Laps for a $250 entry fee...

How many kneel down boats would you need to have, to race 65 laps? What would your entry fees be???

4. Class Structure: Kneeldowns have 13 boats, you end up running a six boat heat, and a seven boat heat????? Series Races have started 20 boats AT A TIME, THIS YEAR....

5. PARTS: 45 parts can be bought through Sea Way Marine or on the internet...you can send your motor to Joey Harper, Mike Wienandt, Bill Curtis,or do the engine yourself...Yes, the motors break, but we run the fire out of them and they are fishing motors, but we are on our first gearcase and we have two years on it..and more than 1,000 laps....We ran 100 laps at San Diego, last weekend, and turned over on the parade lap of one qualifier....or we would have run 110 laps...What Stock race could we go to where we could get 100 laps in over three days???

Back to Ernie and I talking: We are going to build and test a "SPEC" hydro for a 15 HP Four Stroke....Goal is to sell boats, kits and plans...Stay tuned....Soap Box Racing 15.........

6. SAFETY: Reread Steve Hearns article in this month's Propeller Magazine....(He challenges all Divisions to figure out stat of the art safety ideas.....) Sides on runabouts would be a step in th right direction...Break awys noses and pickle forks...higher cockpit sides....LOWER TRANSOM
HEIGHTS.....MUCH LOWER...2 inches on J/AXS/A, 1 3/38 on all others.....

*************REMEMBER****** It was Ron Hill at the 1976 APBA NATIONAL MEETING that BEGGED the SORC to pass a transom height rule and two blad prop run for Yamato motors........

If you don't like transom heights, pass a prop diameter rule.....Pass a claimer price on props....

Look in the mirror and ask yourself, "SELF" what can I do to help boat racing??? I for one, DO NOT FAVOR DROPPING CLASSES...as I see Classes like GN, Super Stock, Cracker Box being California Classes, really, but being the back bone of our racing...I see MINI GT in Minnesota growing...Formula V is basically a LOCAL Class but the clubs need them...Tri Hulls are helping keeping races going in Texas....36 Runabout was our club, until apba DROPPED THIS CLASS..THEY WERE OUR PATROL BOATS, COMMODORES, RACE CHAIRMEN AND FINANCIAL BACKERS....YES, THEY WERE OLD MEN, BUT THEY LOVED BOAT RACING....

[Tim Weber]

Attracting new members is a great thing as Ed and Bill have commented.

Next step is keeping them. I noticed that Andrew Marquis ( 99-W )is quitting and has all of his equipment for sale. I believe he was rookie of the year last season. How do you lose a new member with what seems to be some real potential?

Is it; money, travel, inability to win, speed, danger ? I don't know but we need to find out.

Also, I heard that Andrew had a real nasty crash in CSR this year at Rochelle.
Did this encorage his decision?

Something so many of us take for granted is the equipment we race. Most of us have been at this for a long time with many of us, myself included grew up in the sport. Our newer boats are not easy to drive. Its' been said unless you are on the ragged edge, you are not fast.

Why we do we have to race equipment like this? I am not saying to go back to short sponson Sid's or Speed Liners. A perfect example is the discusion concerning pumping of water for a 102 vs 302 on the hydro. It's seems a no brainer to make both motors run lower. It will lower speeds of the 102 and even the field. Why not make it a 1" for both? You are still racing no matter if you go 65 or 105. Its' the competition between boats and drivers that is what we are after anyway.

In many ways, we need a dictator. Someone who runs the category and says these are the rules and these are the classes. They make the tuff decsions for the good of the sport. Isn't that what Bill France with NASCAR did and isn't this Mike Helton's duty?

I know I'll get responses on the hydro example from above like, " it will cause me to go slower, my props won't work, my boat doesn't handle with that set-up " Waah, Waah, Waah.

Tim

[Brian10s]

Attracting new members should go hand in hand with maintaining the memebership we currently have. We could get 100 guys started tomorrow but if they are gone in 2 years, we are back to where we started. And we all can agree that there are many issues that contribute to attracting and maintaining the membership numbers.
Might be helpful if a survey was sent to all members to see what everyone's top concerns are: Increase safety, new equipment availablity, promotion, shorter racing days, more water time, etc. Not only just to rank the issues for priority but also provided space to add write in issues as well as space for ideas to fix some these issues. This way the Commission would be able to create a matrix of all concerns and what is truely important to the drivers and be able to focus their attention towards the majorities concerns.

[Andrew 4CE]

I was sad to see all of Andrew's stuff for sale too...

Question... What other sports pit all the 30-40 year veterans against the person who is going for their first ride? What chance does the new guy have until many years of work the way things are currently set up. Many sports have some kind of rookie/senior setup. I'm not sure how it would work in our sport as we have too many classes and not enough people. But I don't think well ever get the people the way were set up now even if a guy could go buy a complete in the box ready to race package.

I work a lot of shows, talk to a lot of people and I routinely hear new and curious people questioning getting into the sport because of "pro" type drivers in each of the classes. We need a home for average joe to go for a fun race with other average joes. We have AXSH I guess... something like that in a bigger class maybe? Or a bigger boat/motor also permitted in the AXSH class?

[Ron Hill]

ADD: Ron Hill's "FEW WORDS"...

I forgot a few things about our Series Racing...Freddy Miller figured this out a few years ago....Keep the course to about 35 seconds...which is short as HELL...but believe it or not, short track racing is SAFER...at least in 45, why?????

45's have what I'd call a DUMB GEAR CASE and Prop COMBO (Old OMC Employees don't get mad, this motor is 20 years old)......add in power trim...and what happens is, on a course that is longer than 35 seconds, people run big props, go like hell and blow over... Steven Dawe has run series races for three years now...maybe four, but blew over on a 1 1/4 course this year and knocked the fire out of his boat...Chad has told me, he doesn't want to run clock starts on big course anymore in 45, because he feels out of control.....my 28 year old son, ex Formula One driver, says he isn't safe???????Who know better that he??? If wse go to Bakerfield, he'll run the long course, but just use it as test time for his Series props.

Oh, new members....

Last week, one of my GN CUSTOMERS came into my shop and said, "COOL"....He saw Broc's Dawe C Hydro....He said, "wow, maybe I'll buy abut four of those SUCKERS." How fast do they go? I said, "65 mph...."

He said, " Are you kidding??? That is way too dangerous... I thought they went about 35, I saw them at Parker...." Now, without going into it, this man has more money in his two GN motors (Figure $80,000 for the two, not to mention up keep...)..he can afford four C Hydros and could easily buy them for friends, family and employees...He has more money in props than four C Hydros would cost....But he said they are too fast....he's seen one race at parker, where C Hydro raced....they did go 35 MPH there because it was rough as hell...

When I raced AU and A Hydro...my AU went 42 and a half, my A hydro ran the same prop, and went 43.....and I usualy ran out front in AU and toward the front in A Hysro.... Today, Tammy Dawe's A Hydro runs 57 MPH on a boat one foot shorter than the Big Bee Swift I ran in A Hydro.....

Sorry Tim, but I say bring back the Speedliners and Short Sponson Sids.....One problem with the DU I sold your grandfather, was that tere was only one guy who could drive it.....

Number ONE reason people quit boat racing: Quote ME..."Injuries or fear of of injuries...." SLow all kneel down classes, and we'll be better off...Require bottom width in runabouts....(narrow bottoms run slower and are easier to drive...

[14-H]

***Last week, one of my GN CUSTOMERS came into my shop and said, "COOL"....He saw Broc's Dawe C Hydro....He said, "wow, maybe I'll buy abut four of those SUCKERS." How fast do they go? I said, "65 mph...."

He said, " Are you kidding??? That is way too dangerous...***...

This guy obviously is not from Bakersfield. Seems like that's where all the left coast crazys come from. Wait a minute, it that where Rick Bird is from??? lol. Ed.

[Big Don]

Don’t kid your self, this sport is about money. I don’t think you (RON) were saying it wasn’t. Just saying that it does take money and unless you are willing to spend it you are not going to race any motor sport. Yes there are a few exceptions to this but if you don’t have the money and are not willing to spend it you are not going to win at anything.

But it also take a lot of hard work to win and most are not willing to do that. Ron , you should know that being a retired teacher. Kids are for the most part lazy and not willing to do what it takes. My oldest Donny, his buddies think he’s nuts working on stuff in the garage every night. The kids racing are the ones that are not Lazy for the most part.

You can interview 100 ex-racers and the reasons they quit are going to be in no particular order. Too expensive (I put that one first just for Ron ), to much travel, un-safe, not enough time, not fun anymore, to much politics, can’t get my stuff running fast, tired of being beat by the same guys, not enough boat time, had a family, to many other interest, kid wanted a ski-doo, got pregnant... you get the point.

For every person they say they went to Tunnels for their own personal reasons there are just as many that won’t go to tunnels for those reasons.

The point of time on the course is very valid and if we ever chose to go 45 racing that would be the #1 reason for it. Time on the water no other reason. People get hurt racing tunnels also. Is it safer? That could be argued until…

I have to agree with Bill III… we need racers. If someone wants to race there is equipment out there. NOT SAYING we don’t need new equipment, because we do but are you guys kidding yourselves? You think when the new HOTROD is done they are going to be lining up off the street to buy this? How many new D engine have been sold to new racers?

Ed Runne don’t get mad at me. I love what you are doing but… If we don’t get the current HotRod racers some parts we are going to loose them. Hopefully we are not counting on them having to buy a new engine because they can’t get current parts. Don’t know how many of them can afford to do that, go out and buy 2/3 new engines.

Like John Runne keeps saying, we need a plan on what we want and I don’t know if this group will ever agree on that.

Not being negative, just being a realist (I think).

[DeanFHobart]

Yes, Yes, Yes...

A BIG YES TO WHAT DR. THUNDER SAYS. THANKS NEAL.

[csh2z]

Bravo!

Well said Don, thank you. Our product is not the problem, it needs some work but drastically making changes willy-nilly with out a goal is stupid. Why continue on a path that leads to nowhere? We need to show new people that we are organized and focussed on making racing Stock Outboard a worthwhile investment. There is no single answer. Currently, we must appear, to anybody from the outside, that we have no idea what we are doing. If somebody wants to start racing, what classes or equipment would you in good conscience advise them to buy so they wouldn't be throwing their money away? How many classes that we currently have will be around 5-10 years from now? Draw a realistic picture of the future of S.O. as it stands now. What are we specifically doing right now to insure that racing will survive after we are gone? Evaluate the future of each class we currently have. Is the future bright? Optimist or pessimist? We need to be able to answer these questions. John Runne 2-Z

[fitsracing]

what is your plan

John,

What is your plan for SO?, and could you post your plan for all to see.

Thanks

Kevin

[26V]

YES,

QUOTE!
Back to Ernie and I talking: We are going to build and test a "SPEC" hydro for a 15 HP Four Stroke....Goal is to sell boats, kits and plans...Stay tuned....Soap Box Racing 15.........
!
If we get a class that runs a new production 15 HP motor a new driver can go out and purchase it with out the trials and hassels I have had in getting a good motor.
What about just trying it on a current ASH or ASR boat? Going to the four strokes would be a plus for the sport. At least I think so.

[Blackhawkguy]

WOW, Racing is dangerous, go figure, isn't that some of the attraction. Lets look at history a minute.

1. Safety
a. Around 1984 a nice young man named Billy Allen almost lost his arm when his prop broke loose and he got spit out of his boat. At that time there was no higth restriction and if your prop did not work to well you just added shims until it did. Guess what, the SORC mandated a higth restriction on runabouts but not hydros, the runabout guys just learned to adjust the diamiter of the prop you ran and you where back going as fast as befroe. I remeber getting out of the Marines and getting back into a race boat and thinking how easy they made testing for me, just set up the motor, the prop works or it doesn't. Seems it worked for the runabouts but why did they not limit the hyros?

b. Cut resistent clothing, mandated

c. Kill teathers mandated

d. Kevlar lined safety jackets

e. and I'm sure there are some other things I have forgoten

I watched a guy I raced againt flip his 25 hyro in perfectly calm water and die because he had it so out of control trying to win, did the same thing a few weeks before just did not get hit in the head the first time. He ran 25 runabout to but he could not set the boat up out of control because he had a limit on how high he could run it. You cannot make people safer than they are willing to make themselves.

Racing is dangerous period!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats the thrill of doing it, that is why we do it, I fly in Blackhawks 20 feet of trees doing 150 miles an hour, it's exciting but I also know if something happens I am going to most likely die, its a risk I except, racing is the same. Make sure the people who are new and starting out understand falling out of the boat is bad, the more times you fall out the more chances of getting hurt. Not sure there is much more you can do to make it safer, look at OPC, mandated cockpits and people still get hurt, they just think they can't.