S.O. National Meeting Agenda

[HRTV]

Hey Fred, glad to see a voice of experience chime in.

You are dead right about one thing...there needs to be a push to get members out of and/or not begin running weak classes. And as you and I both know, that's going to require a shove.

As for this "chicken or the egg" discussion about getting more drivers first or making the product more appealing to attract/hold new drivers...I offer this.

If tomorrow 100 guys came knocking on my door and said theyt wanted to race, here's what S.O. would have to offer.

1. An 8 hour race day. Up at 7:30am to register. $25-40 per class. Packing up at 5-6pm if you run at end of schedule.
2. 2 heats per class. About 8 minutes total water time per class
3. No testing.
4. At 90% of races, NO prizes of any kind.
5. 3 engines you can buy new today off the shelf. (Merc 15, Yamato 302, Tohatsu 'D') Merc 44xs is reconditioned. Close to new.
6. Average 3-6 hour drive one way to your local races during the summer.
7. Your class may not be scheduled at every race during the year.
8. Great people. They'd give you the shirt off their back.
9. Great ride...best 8 minutes you could imagine.
10. New boats across the country. Several builders. Avg. $3000-$4000 each.

Now...Joe Blow off the street...think he'd be chomping at the bit?

What if we offered:

1. Registration at 9am
2. 5 hour race day.
3. Buy a new engine for every class offered.
4. Testing
5. 3 heats each day. Maybe 4. 12-16 minutes of water time.
6. An award ceremony after racing on Sunday.
7. Great people, great ride, new boats of all kinds built to suit you, 3-6 hour ride one way to each local race.
8. Your class WILL be scheduled at every race during the year.


Which scenario sounds more attractive to NEW members.


D.

Great Post Dana,

I brought up point #6 years ago when I asked what happens at the end of local races other then folks wave goodbye pack up and leave. If I were a new racer looking around at the end of the day I would ask my self where is everyone going ? I just drove 4/5 maybe 8 hours to your event and all I get is a wave and see ya next time buddy. The awards ceremony should be mandatory at every race, make the guy feel like something other then just saying see ya next time

[forshey99]

The answer is obvious.....

But some of the resultant problems are not....

If we trimmed down the class structure(which I am in favor of), where will the resources come from to work the turn/resuce boats and judges stand? If we funnel all the participants into a few classes, who will be available to run the regattas?

If you have J,A,C,D hydro and runabout what will a schedule look like in order to accomodate official needs. Less classes will not require less turn judges/rescue drivers and judges stand workers. But we will certainly have less people available since they will all be racing all the time.

Not that this problem should slow down progress by any means, but we should be aware that the obvious changes that need to occur will bring about more problems that are unforseen at this point.

[pearson95m]

Excellent post! I’ve been sitting back reading all of the great comments and now feel the need to express my 2 cents.

Personally, I’m part of a class that has been on its last leg for a number of years now. To the point where I’m about ready to throw in the towel and start over with a new class. The problem that I have is that my choices of classes are limited to C and D and by the looks of it… just C. I have no problems with that other than I just love feeling the raw power of a D. Anyway, my point is that I’m just sick of trying to scrape people together to go race. With that said, I’m willing to give up my love (D) if it means it will make the sport stronger and more competitive.

I love the idea of reducing the number of classes. In fact, I just got back from a mod race this past weekend in Hillsdale (great race) and we got to run 3 separate races in the two day weekend because of the low number of classes run. I’d like to see a basic 5 or 6 class structure and possibly run an extra race on a weekend. This would save on overhead expenses (i.e. Travel time) to achieve the same amount of races in a season.

I would also like to see multiple motor types allowed to be run in each class. Perhaps a cubic inch requirement on standard (for all motors) tower housing. This would allow for competitive manufacturing and possible sponsorship from outboard motor companies. Leave it up to the driver’s /slash/ market to decide their preference.

Obviously, there is no way this will happen overnight but (as Fox says) if we create a long term plan of where we want the sport to go, then as issues arise, the decisions are made as to the overall goals of the long term plan… and “feelings” aren’t hurt.

(Hypothetically speaking)
Step one: Decide which classes to have; (ex. J, A, B, C, D) with NO preconceived ideas of who currently runs what or what equipment works best with each category. Just decide on 5 or 6 classes… period
Step two: Elect a representative and committee for each class to structure the class (ex. Boat measurements, weight, motor size, type, ect…) This is where we can look at body types and suitable boat sizes.
Step three: Set a timeline to implement the plan. Let’s say in 10 years this will be done. In the mean time, depending on how step 2 pans out, the current classes will be combined into these 5 or 6 basic classes. (ex. in 5 years the 20’s will become part of the B class, etc…)


This gives current drivers time to adjust. This would also give new drivers a set of rules or a guide as to where the sport is going and what class is most suitable for them.

Obviously, this is going to tough and make people grumpy over the possible loss of there particular class. But I also think its time for a change and we need to do it now with the good core of stock families we currently have. Sure, we may loose some… but I feel that in the long run Stock would come back stronger than ever. Nothing beats good competitive racing in a family type atmosphere… and those are the two things we should be striving for. We have the family part; let’s work on the competitive part.

Ok.. that’s all for now… I have to go to Big Rapids and race.

I love this post, keep it up.

Josh Pearson 95-M

[pearson95m]

2 more cents…

This is in response to the patrol boat issue. We charge an extra $5 or $10 bucks entry fee and pay someone to handle the patrol boats. We would only need one or two drivers in each turn to monitor driving infractions. All the other BS (pick up boats, boat drivers, flag person, etc… ) could be handled by giving a local college kid a couple hundred bucks on the weekend to sit and watch races all day. I know this is a nice weekend job I would have snagged up when I was in school.

[STEVE FRENCH]

[QUOTE=dholt

If the National landscape was trimmed, then NO club would have to decide which classes are included and which aren't. There would be time for everyone to race if they showed up. And test. And maybe even get 3 heats per day for 2 days.

It's a simple formula. Funnel all new participants into a smaller number of classes...and you'll see growth. You'll have more boats show up in each class at every race. You'll not have to worry if your class will have enough boats to race...or worry that your class is even on the schedule.

D.[/QUOTE]

Dana,
With the above said, How would your "simple formula" deal with 20SSH/CSH/25SSH?

Would you combine them like 25 SSR ?
We are close to that now with 102/302's legal in 20SSH with restrictors right? You could choke down the restictor and drop the heigth on the 25XS a little more right?......
(I think I just heard a bunch'a 25 guys choke on their beer........ )

Or would you "shove" 20SSH and 25SSH and their 20+ year old motors out/into MOD or "stock classics"?

Since you are one of the "TOP-GUNS" in 20SSH I'd like to see your cards on this one................
(I'm will'n to bet 20SSH will survive with the promise of the 20H/R join'n)

I own each of the above motors/rigs (302 and bought the 25XS and the Y-80 this spring) and enjoy running them but my ads are ready for E-bay................
(not really cause I enjoy just look'n at this stuff....)

Maybe every 20 years or so, we need to sweep the slate clean like the KG-4/20H/ and all the CSH/DSH equipment/racers lost when the Yamatos and Merc XS motors were forced on the membership.

Also, how many new/current members are going to be able to right a check for "NEW" equipment at todays prices? Could you write a check for a new Hot-Rod/Tohatsu/etc........?

Dana, you have been at this alot longer than me, and I have a ton of respect for your experience, but I think this is far from "simple"....................

At the National/Divisional or even high partisipation races such as Spring Franklin it may have to come to this. But at smaller "club" events leave it up to the membership...................
Once a club has a tenative schedule, perhaps a E-mail/letter should go out BEFORE a sanction is made out asking the Racers/Members what THEY want to run at a particular site and ask for a pre-registration/good-faith deposit ........? Wait a minute----Isn't that the current deal? OK Steve---step away-----from the computer!

...Yep, I might of saved about $15K in other racer's used equipment over the last couple years...............(Some of it had a 3-S on it......)

...it's the number of entries that the clubs need to break even on race day. Presently they need to schedule a lot of classes to get enough entries. So, don't start at the wrong end! You must start with attracting more members to race before you start eliminating the classes of the racers that exist.

Having said that, how do we attract members to the existing strong classes so we don't perpetuate the weak ones at the same time? (This may be regional, though, since certain classes are stronger or weaker in certain regions. But that's OK if we limit weekends to certain classes in certain regions.)

One idea that has been around for a while, but had limited use, is to bias the water time toward the stronger classes. It can work like this: if your class has only four entries, you only get one heat of racing per day. Get five to eight boats out and you run two heats. If you get 9 to 12, you are scheduled for three final heats. More than 12 and you have two heat eliminations and two final heats (effectively four heats for most drivers). The cut-off numbers (4, 8, 12) can (should?) be different, it's the idea that is important.

The hoped-for result is that more drivers will "buy into" the stronger classes, especially new drivers. Also answers the question of why do certain drivers run lots of classes if the answer is to get in more heats of racing.

Offered as one person's idea, so, start shooting holes in this idea. We need some solutions.

Fred Hauenstein

Fred, this is the best working deal I've heard so far and I've seen it work.......

19P

PS---Hasn't the ranks in 25SSH shown some growth/new faces this season?

[forshey99]

College kid???

"We would only need one or two drivers in each turn to monitor driving infractions."
-Not sure what you said is any different than what we already need..1 or 2 drivers in each turn.

"All the other BS (pick up boats, boat drivers, flag person, etc… ) could be handled by giving a local college kid a couple hundred bucks on the weekend to sit and watch races all day."
-With all the attention being given to safety these last couple years, do we really want "some college kid" deciding if a red flag should be waved? What does he know about boat racing and when a situation calls for a red flag?
-And the "couple hundred bucks" that you're going to raise with another $5-$10 per entry....that should go over well with drivers already unhappy about $25 a class.

Not that this particular problem cannot be overcome, it obviously can. My point was that surely these wholesale changes that need to be made will result in other issues we will have to work through. Let's be thing\king of viable solutions before we are head first into something.

Nate

[DrRick34-0]

Somebody mentioned trying to get in with the TV coverage to get new racers. I just watched PWC races on the water channel yesterday. Somebody posted that Depue would be on, but it was not. The PWC races were not near as exciting as our racing in my unbiased opinion. I have also seen lawn mower racing on ESPN. We need some kind of connection to get us TV coverage to get new racers. We struggle in my area to figure out this perfect plan as everyone is discussing. I think that upping the minimum to 5 or 7 boats could start to eliminate some of these classes. I have seen in the past people get mad and quit when you cut their classes. When you increase the minimum needed to race, the class either increases or dies a natural death. I think the racers then migrate to the bigger classes. I do think the smaller number of classes is the answer, but be careful how it is done.

Rick Miller
34-0

[Lights]

Great Idea's

What if we offered:

1. Registration at 9am
2. 5 hour race day.
3. Buy a new engine for every class offered.
4. Testing
5. 3 heats each day. Maybe 4. 12-16 minutes of water time.
6. An award ceremony after racing on Sunday.
7. Great people, great ride, new boats of all kinds built to suit you, 3-6 hour ride one way to each local race.
8. Your class WILL be scheduled at every race during the year.
D.

I like this scenario and I think so would most new comers.

Lights

[Dr. Thunder]

I like this scenario and I think so would most new comers.

Lights

Like I said earlier ... this is the USTS format ... why re-invent the wheel. It works, draws a crowd, gets TV and media exposure. Does it get new drivers to the Pro category ... don't know. Would that format in Stock draw new drivers and families ... would almost guarantee it would! New engines just around the corner, plenty of excellent boat builders doing really nice work, projects like the H.A.R.M "J" program ... all this takes is an APBA Board that is willing to "stay in LA til the work gets done".

So, the question is: Do we believe that the APBA Board is hearing the message and is willing to advance this subject to a point of conclusion at this years Annual Meeting ... that the SORC will make the appropriate recommendations so that the Board can take action.

[Brian10s]

[QUOTE=Dr. Thunder]Like I said earlier ... this is the USTS format ... why re-invent the wheel. It works, draws a crowd, gets TV and media exposure. Does it get new drivers to the Pro category ... don't know. Would that format in Stock draw new drivers and families ... would almost guarantee it would! QUOTE]


I have been reading this all day and while it makes for a nice break from work, it is roughly the same song year after year. While I agree with many posts about too many classes and 3 boat races and such, Forshey came up with 2 great posts on what it takes to actually put on a race. And with that said, I will add another issue, MONEY. Unless you can get a local sponsor to kick in some major bucks (and lets get real, there are what about 20 sites across the country that have paying sponsors out of the over 100 races), clubs put on races with entry fees. Unless all racers who don't fit in the A, B, C, D format are going to junk their rigs and buy new, how is a club going to afford to put on a race? either that or maybe $75 to 100 per entry.

And since Dr Thunder keep bring up the USTS, lets discuss that for a minute. Yes, he is right, USTS does limit the schedule and runs a short, well put on race. However, the USTS is a local CLUB. The Pro Commission didn't cut 1 single class. In fact they have added some classes. So why is everybody demanding that the SORC and the BOD do something that you can not even convince your own local clubs to do? I have never heard of a US"Stock"TS. If this is the way of the future, then get your local club to buy into it and run it, see if it takes off like the Title Series did. I'm not saying that change isn't possible or maybe even necessary, just why does everybody always think our Commissions should do the heavy lifting and cut our schedule when our local clubs can't do it and survive.

As for the ABCD - it is a perfect concept but a. where are you going to get all these new motors. b. how will you survive until these new motors are produced and on the water in a quanity that will sustain a class. c. what does a driver do with the old motors, just eat his investment d. what are you going to do to keep a new racer who buys your new motor, and could smell clean water unless he jumps by 30 seconds. 4 heats of being 12th is still no fun, no matter what.
And it is usually the 2nd to 5th year that we lose most new drivers. Anyone every ask why they left? Was it to expensive? The people not freindly enough? Or frustration at never having any sucess or even a chance at it? Maybe it is the travel? I don't know, but we should find out.

On travel, what would it take to figure out how to set up each region a home track? 1 racesite that you could go back to 3-4 times a year? By being there more than once a season, you would develop a fan base and maybe a few new racers from the area. Look at the crowds you get at sites that have been around for years, Depue and Lock Haven to name a couple. Doing the hit and run deal is not gathering new bodies as fast as we lose them. Not to mention that one weekend we are in your back yard, the next we and 7 hrs away. There is a hard sell.

What about a special insurance waiver and no fee for rides in a boat. Not racing but a ride. We always say nothing sell our form of racing like a ride, so lets start giving out samples. Why couldn't each club get a donated rig (old hydro, maybe an old engine that is either illegal or obsolete) and give the spectators 2 laps of pure speed? No charge, just sign and try. Beats handing out a pamphlet. Get the local sports guy to go for a ride - free PR.

I don't have all the answers but cutting classes has always been and will continue to be the hardest issue. There are plenty of low hanging fruit that we can get that will make for positive change before we need to tackle the biggest of them all.

[CSR4C]

Data

Can we please get each kneel down club to submit the following info?

typical classes run at club races
typical number of classes that have elims at club races
do you have testing time
normal start time
normal end time
typical number of entries
do you normally complete each day's schedule?
what is your entry fee
number of entries required for club to break even

East Bay Boat Club, Region 11
This year our club has four races.
Typical classes are: AXSH, ASH, 20SSH, CSH, OSY400, CSR, DMH, FEH, DMR, SST45, 45SS, SC, Cracker Box. Some times we have 350ccR, JH and our beginners class Nor Cal 400. Also at 3 of the races a Marathon the last event on Saturday for CSR & SC.
We have not had elems. this year.
No Testing time except for J when we have them.
Start time 10am
End time 5pm Saturday, 3:30 Sunday
Entries 60 to 85 per day
We complete each day's schedule, except when there is a weather problem
Entry fees: $45 / $35 / $25 / $1. J's entry starts at 1 level lower. Also a family plan.
Break even point is about 70 entries.

Darrell Sorensen

[STEVE FRENCH]

Couple other things on my "attention-deficit" mind...............

Could we get a package deal price/rule worked out on the APBA unversal tower with either a new Merc, Hot-rod, and/or 302 foot?
How about a universal Hot-Rod tower/foot?
List of ten year old, or newer, powerheads avail to use on above and conversion kits if avail, or who is willing to work on kits?

More al-cha-hall enhanced thoughts;
With the 1/2" heighth rule in CSH/20SSH, would it be possible to propose allowing the 302 motors to use a speedometer water pick-up mounted on transum to supply water to the cast boss at top of tower?
Reason; to give this motor a chance to compete with the 80 (in 20SSH) and 102 (in CSH).
The 302 has an inherent disadvantage in abillity to "pump" water at this height with any kind of competative prop. If you don't have the resorces/time/money to find that "MAGIC-WHEEL" for this motor, or exotic hull design that directs water to the water pick-up, your just playing "fallow-the-leader".........Or looking like a steam engine...............
Also, to help save down time/cost from these motors overheating.
Cost should be under $50?
(Or, Is this bending the definition of stock too far?)
(Was the definition bent with the introduction of the production (race only) motors---like Hot-Rod/Yamato?)

OR, drop the heighth rule to 3/4" were the 302 wheels pump water.. (OOPS,---- there goes a couple beers! )

Or, How about a "spec" wheel/prop like the J classes?
(I think I just heard a whole bunch of Racers choke on their beers!!!!)

19P ...."Dang it Steve.......Stay in MOD!!!!!!!!!"

[Blackhawkguy]

Wow, the minds are turning now. Here is a simple sugestion to the answer of money. When I took over Grass Lake in 93 I wanted to have good trophies to present for a weekend high point, the person who gave me a solution was Vic's girlfriend Fern who had done some work with the Jackson Baloon fest. We sold class sponsores for 250 and put them in the program on a half page add, the trophies for all the classes to 5th place cost at that time 1, 600 dollars. Anybody who got one can atest to the fact that they where nice wood three post trophies. The other thing that helps tremendously is tie the race in with a local event, alot of the advertising can be picked up by your main event commite, let them spend their money not yours. A 250 dollar check is alot easyer for a business to write than say trying to get 2,000. As far as what to do with the old equipment, this has always been the sore point with peple and why you have more classes than you can handle, nobody wants their motor to go away, especialy if it's one of the stronger classes. Maybe go with the basic 15, 20, 30, 40 cubic inch classes and combine the motors that fit into that catagory, let the racers sort it out, if one particular motor is better it will prevail, if there is not enough parity adjust to bring them closer, if you cannot get a motor then the so many year since manufactur rule kicks it out of the class, not tens years either, like within 5, other wise nobody will want to run the class if they are not competitive and the good motor is the older not available one. There is no simple solution but good old hard work and hard descisions.

[jsilvestri]

Many good thoughts posted so far. However, before any change is made why not look at the definition of Stock Outboard Racing. Once, this is established or understood, we should be offering suggestions that stick with the origional intention of Stock Outboard Racing.

Remember, one step at a time.

[csh2z]

Good point Joe, It is one of the first items in my proposal. We need to define what S.O. is or should be, what are our goals, and how do we attain those goals. Example: Should S.O. be "one motor per class" or do we want to have multiple motors competing against one another? Example: How do we transition from an older motot to a new one? Example: Should the J classes be under the jurisdiction of S.O. again as it used to be? Could expense monies be funneled to and paid for by the SORC? We need to set up guidelines for transition from one commission to the next. We are looking for a consistant philosophy to follow every step of the way. Once the "PLAN" is developed we must look how every proposal or rule fits into the long term goal. More Later, John 2-Z